Am I using too much nitrogen?

[Errol]

Well, I bet you got confused with the decimals. It's 0.7 (zero point seven) gram per liter (litre), 0.7 and 0.4 Mg. (obviously only 0.1g CaCl/liter)
Attention: 7 gram per liter of both would probably kill your plants over night.

Apologies for the mathematical aberration - I get confused by the ',' you use as a decimal point - a European practice I think? I'm from Australia where we use a '.' to denote the decimal point. Yes, 7gms/litre would probably even kill you and me off overnight!

But equal quantities only determines the proportion of N vs. P and K, it doesn't say if the N-content is too high or not. It actually depends on how much Calcium Nitrate is used per Liter. I bet you were using more than 0.7 g/l, were you...?

Actually I work off the EC reading. I toss in enough Hydrosol and calcium nitrate to get a reading of about 2.0. I have two 160 litre tanks (connected) and I make sure I introduce the Hydrosol and calcium nitrate at opposite ends of the tank to make sure there's no harmful chemical reaction. But with some MGSO4 and calcium chloride in the mix as well, that would mean the salt level would actually produce an EC reading of 2.0 with a lower quantity of calcium nitrate and therefore a lower nitrogen content? This would mean less vegetative growth and could solve the problem?

If I understood your goal and concept right, you are growing various plants and not mainly leafy vegetables. In that case I recommend a N-content not exceeding 150-170 PPM of N. Lettuce would be happier with some 200-220 PPM, but tomatoes, peppers (as well as cucumbers) and most nightshade wouldn't really like that.

As I read your New Mix 2 formula, it already contains 151.2ppm of N, so the mix you suggest of 0.7gs/l should work well with my non-leafy plants?

I think you are gradually getting me very close to a solution here, Luches, complex formulae or not! Thanks for your patience.

Cheers,

Errol

[Errol]

More reflection.......Plan A is as follows:

8 parts Hydrosol (to get the K up a bit)
4 parts MgSO4

7 parts calcium nitrate
1 part calcium chloride

Mixed in those proportions, but keeping the concentrate separated, and added to my nutrient tanks until I reach an EC reading of 2.0.

Hopefully that will achieve a good result!

I do appreciate your work, patience and perseverance with somebody you don't know, probably on the other side of the world. If everybody was as generous with their time and as prepared to help other people as you are we wouldn't have the problems in the world that we do today.

Best wishes and many thanks again,

Errol

[Luches]

Next step...

1. Decimal problem solved. Actually my spreadsheet (MS) uses comma to express decimals, that's why I tend to use it too. But true, european practice is right too.

Originally Posted by Errol

Actually I work off the EC reading. I toss in enough Hydrosol and calcium nitrate to get a reading of about 2.0. I have two 160 litre tanks (connected) and I make sure I introduce the Hydrosol and calcium nitrate at opposite ends of the tank to make sure there's no harmful chemical reaction. But with some MGSO4 and calcium chloride in the mix as well, that would mean the salt level would actually produce an EC reading of 2.0 with a lower quantity of calcium nitrate and therefore a lower nitrogen content? This would mean less vegetative growth and could solve the problem?

Yes, adding more components will obviously lower the Nitrogen content with the same EC reading. And, your primary logic behind the way you proceed is right too. But....

Originally Posted by Errol

As I read your New Mix 2 formula, it already contains 151.2ppm of N, so the mix you suggest of 0.7gs/l should work well with my non-leafy plants?

Yes, except that the "New mix 2 formula" I gave you will not total 2.0 EC, but less. Even with the new ingredients, with 2.0 you'll probably end up with more than 150 PPM of Nitrogen. We have 2 ways of getting to finalize it here: 1. I'll calculate and tell you the almost exact EC needed to realize "New mix 2 formula" with the PPM content as shown, or I'll explain you why actual PPM of a formula and a EC reading are not the same cup of tea. You tell me!

Another even simpler way to get to this formula will be to weight of 210 gram of calcium nitrate, 210 gram of Hydrosol, 120 gram of magnesium sulfate, and 40 gram of CaCl. And do what you did with your tanks before, except that you fill in exactly 150 liter in each.

Originally Posted by Errol

I think you are gradually getting me very close to a solution here, Luches, complex formulae or not! Thanks for your patience.

I truly hope so, and don't worry - it took me some 2 years to see the whole plot behind formulas.

PS: you next post just dropped in now - will get back to it soon.

Cheers!

[Luches]

Next

Originally Posted by Errol

More reflection.......Plan A is as follows:
8 parts Hydrosol (to get the K up a bit)
4 parts MgSO4
7 parts calcium nitrate
1 part calcium chloride

Mixed in those proportions, but keeping the concentrate separated, and added to my nutrient tanks until I reach an EC reading of 2.0.

OK, I was about to make the proposal of adding just a pinch more Hydrosol to get the K up a bit (despite the fact that P will get somewhat high - which isn't an issue at all).

I was also wondering if you use to make concentrate anyway. If so, (which is actually smarter) the strategy to apply can be adopted accordingly. You anyway should take the lead on the method and the actual procedure, as you need to do that part regularly by yourself.

Still, the basic EC of 2.0 seems quite high to me, in general (for general purpose feeding) as well as according to the formula we are about to settle for. As explained earlier, it can be determined by adding relative conductivity of each ingredient. It's more accurate and it helps knowing what may be wrong (what should be changed) in case of trouble.

As for your setting up procedure (as usual), it doesn't change much - except that instead of adding equal parts of concentrate until getting to 2.0 mS (or EC) it may only be 1.7-1.9 (still to be determined).

Btw: I am actually not that far away from your place. Depending on your location in Australia, I'm about 3500-4500 roughly estimated miles direction North-northeast (S.E.A)

Cheers,
Luches

[Luches]

Here's the final proposal:
According to your "plan A" (slightly more CaCl)

8 parts Hydrosol (to get the K up a bit)
4 parts MgSO4·7H2O
7 parts calcium nitrate
1.5 parts calcium chloride

A. Hydrosol + MgSO4·7H2O
B. calcium nitrate + calcium chloride

In terms of PPM it looks like follows:


To end up with exactly this formula and actual PPM of each element, you need to add EQUALLY as much of A. and B. until you reach EC 1.8(4). Though you can anticipate what it will look like if you go with EC 2.0.

I have calculated (most accurately) what you have had previously, when mixing equal parts of Hydrosol and calcium nitrate until you reach EC 2.0:


PS: The maths and formulas behind the later scene are part of my professional secret, though. Yet, I can tell that I had to completely decompose Hydrosol into its basic components (they're actually kinda obvious regarding the formula). One has also to know the actual electrical conductivity of each single component, even of those that are used to manufacture Hydrosol.

I guess you can go solo from here... but in case you have further questions, do not hesitate to rattle my bamboo cage!

Cheers,
Luches

[Errol]

Still, the basic EC of 2.0 seems quite high to me, in general (for general purpose feeding)

I have a list of recommended ECs from my local hydroponic supplier which I've been using ie

Bean 2.0-4.0
Beetroot 1.8-5.0
Capsicum 1.8-2.2
Carrots 1.6-2.0
Cucumber 1.7-2.5
Leek 1.4-1.8
Strawberries 1.8-2.2
Tomatoes 2.0-5.0

They certainly vary, and that's the dilemma one has in trying to grow a number of crops in the one nutrient, of course. The supplier told me tomatoes should have a minimum EC of 3.0 if they were to have any taste, otherwise they'd be watery and tasteless. But I think he might know more about marijuana (that's what most of his customers grow!) - my tomatoes have always been quite tasty at 2.0.

The recommended pH for most of the plants I grow is closer to 6.0-6.5 than the 7.0 I usually run, so maybe I'd better get that down too.

Just one last thing before I leave you in peace, Luches, should there be a couple of formulae towards the end of your post that might not have copied in properly?

I'm from Hobart, Tasmania actually - where the temp is 10.8 at the moment (6.20pm). A bit cooler than your home territory I imagine. My wife and I have just returned from 8 days in Singapore where our daughter and family live. 30-32 degrees and sticky most of the time, hard to get used to.

Cheers,

Grant

[Errol]

OK, the formulae have now appeared!

[Luches]

Hi again Errol,
Sorry for the delay, but as I live in some sort of country under technological development, I had no internet connection for some 12 hours.

Originally Posted by Errol

I have a list of recommended ECs from my local hydroponic supplier which I've been using ie

Bean 2.0-4.0
Beetroot 1.8-5.0
Capsicum 1.8-2.2
Carrots 1.6-2.0
Cucumber 1.7-2.5
Leek 1.4-1.8
Strawberries 1.8-2.2
Tomatoes 2.0-5.0

According to my previous explanations, one could hopefully deduce that about plant nutrition, nutrient concentration, EC, PPM and such, there are several levels of understanding. Hence there are several levels of recommendations as well

On an advanced level the actual PPM of each element which is needed by a specific plant is considered firstly - total EC is secondary (and actually a result of the later data). When seen from such perspective, PPM (gram/liter) of each single raw materials used (not elements) will then result in a specific EC.

Hence, any EC recommendations (as in total concentration) for specific plants are actually pure nonsense - if not linked to a formula or a specific product. Without knowing the actual PPM content of each element of a nutrient, a recommendation of a EC could either be close enough or completely false.

It may help pointing someone into the right direction, you'd add? Well it may help, - but it may lead into erroneous reasoning and practise as well. Unfortunately lead to erroneous argumentation also

Originally Posted by Errol

The supplier told me tomatoes should have a minimum EC of 3.0 if they were to have any taste, otherwise they'd be watery and tasteless. But I think he might know more about marijuana (that's what most of his customers grow!) - my tomatoes have always been quite tasty at 2.0.

Rome to the Romans and tomatoes to the Neapolitans
I guess taste of tomatoes is linked (lets say) 80% to genetics. I'm growing a marble sized 'wild' indigenous tomato variety which beats Marianna's Piece, Oaxacan Jewel and even some russian specialties in flavor. Grown in earth it unfortunately tastes slightly bitter. But grown in Hydro (in actually quite low nutrient concentration) it is as rich in flavor as grown in dirt and notably less bitter.

Originally Posted by Errol

The recommended pH for most of the plants I grow is closer to 6.0-6.5 than the 7.0 I usually run, so maybe I'd better get that down too.

I STRONGLY recommend to get and keep PH between 6 and 6.5, otherwise you will run into iron deficiency, followed by (over 7) boron, coper zinc!

Just wait the PH reading of your new formula, it actually should get you a lower PH (at least somewhat).

PS: temperatures here have been around 30-33 since end of May, only a few days with heavy monsoon rains were cooler. Before (April and May) they were much higher... Though, November, December January and half of February, day temperatures range between 20-25° C and not a single raindrop for 3-4 month. Anyway, that means less than 3 months to grow ripe tomatoes from seed to ripe fruit outdoors! Same for capsicum and many others. 365 days a year top growing season

[Errol]

Hi Luches,

I STRONGLY recommend to get and keep PH between 6 and 6.5, otherwise you will run into iron deficiency, followed by (over 7) boron, coper zinc!

Just wait the PH reading of your new formula, it actually should get you a lower PH (at least somewhat).

You're spot on. The reading at 1.8 is now about 6.3. I've added MgSO4. by the way, but not the calcium chloride for the moment because it's only available in very large bags at a very high price.

I also came to an interesting realisation - when I first started out in hydroponics, my local supplier simply told me to use Hydrosol and calcium nitrate '50/50' which I took to mean equal quantities. But your formula is based on equal weight, and there's a difference. The calcium nitrate I use is 11% heavier than Hydrosol, which means a 10% reduction in it (using a weight-based mix) for starters.

Factoring this into your formula, I think my plants will be getting 35%-40% less N this year. I'll be keen to see the results.

Thanks again for your tremendous help.

Cheers,

Errol
PS I've uploaded a few photos to an album if you're interested in having a look at my setup.

[Luches]

You're most welcome!

Originally Posted by Errol

You're spot on. The reading at 1.8 is now about 6.3. I've added MgSO4. by the way, but not the calcium chloride for the moment because it's only available in very large bags at a very high price.

6.3 is fine if growing various plants - it will probably climb though, as uptake of acid components is supposed to be faster. Watch it happen ...
About the calcium chloride: it's necessary if your tap (or source water) hasn't got much calcium. What's the EC reading of your tap water? If it is between 0.1 and 0.2 (like mine), very little calcium is contained. If it's between 0.3 and 0.4 there should be 30-40 PPM of calcium contained anyway and calcium chloride isn't really needed. Please keep in mind that previously with your higher calcium nitrate content, you got lots of calcium too! Try to get a better source, specialized drug stores should have it in 1kg packages. I only pay about 1 USD $ per Kilo, food grade!

Originally Posted by Errol

I also came to an interesting realisation - when I first started out in hydroponics, my local supplier simply told me to use Hydrosol and calcium nitrate '50/50' which I took to mean equal quantities. But your formula is based on equal weight, and there's a difference. The calcium nitrate I use is 11% heavier than Hydrosol, which means a 10% reduction in it (using a weight-based mix) for starters.

They say: If the terrain differs from the map, stick with the terrain!

Originally Posted by Errol

Factoring this into your formula, I think my plants will be getting 35%-40% less N this year. I'll be keen to see the results.

Not sure about that percentage... let me check something...

Don't see me as a maniac, but you have to consider the actual EC versus gram/liter ratio of each component, to know how much less Nitrogen you use with the new mix


Mixing 1 Gram of Calcium Nitrate in 1 Liter of water, will result in 0.95-1.0 EC, while mixing 1 Gram of Magn. Sulph. in 1 Liter, will only give a reading of EC 0.66-0.70. You can "try that at home", but you'll need an accurate scale to do so. The ratio of Hydrosol has to be seen as an estimate, though. I haven't had Hydrosol handy and had to guess its composition in components to get to that number (0.76). In case you'll measure it, keep me posted if my estimate was accurate!

Originally Posted by Errol

PS I've uploaded a few photos to an album if you're interested in having a look at my setup.

Sure thing, glad to see it - I haven't found your post yet, will check again now...

Cheers,
Luches