The eternal light question
 

Does any one out there have any data on the costs (approx) it tkes to run each type of grow light.

Example. How much does it cost (again approx.) to run the different strengths of MH, compared to HPS, compared to CF, and so on?

I would like to gather the data on these to put out there since it seems to be the common question that a lot of new comers, including myself, have but have never really found an answer for.

The cost of running lights can be a HUGE factor in setting up a grow system and it to have the data telling what it costs to use each type of light could save a person a lot of money if they are on a budget. To buy an expensive light system and finding out that you cannot afford to run it is many steps back verse having to use a lower light and dealing with the slight drop in over all plant productivity.

Again, I am just a new comer looking for answers.

Thanks in advance for any info. provided.

This is a good question, I was wondering the same thing about a year ago. Although I grow in natural light, so it isn't an issue for me right now. I will try to look for that type of info later tonight if I can. I think one of the big reasons it is not readily available is because electricity costs vary so much from one area to another, and even sometimes with the season like summers when everyone is running their AC. I can tell you how to figure out the exact cost of the lighting once you have it running, but it needs to be plunged in first.

I could be wrong but as I understand it, MH and HPS are the most expensive to run. Then I would guess that florescent would be next, and lastly LED would likely be the cheapest to run. There are also other considerations to consider like heat buildup with MH and HPS, and the electricity needed to run fans to get rid of it. Also the the fact that florescent cant put out the same type of intensity (needing more to do the same job). LED may be the cheapest to run but not to buy that I know of. They all have there pro's and con's. Is it possible to grow in natural light?

Thanks GPS,
Even what you have stated is a good start to answering some of the questions that are out there with out having to weed through multiple sources.

I totally understand in some instances it is comparing apple to oranges, some lights give off heat and need fans others are cooler but not as intense, etc.
But again those are things that people have to mull through a lot of info to gather and having them in one place is helpful.

Unfortunately, growing year round in natural light is not an option for me. I live in Wisconsin and the amount of light wanes in the winter not to mention I am gong to try this Aquaponically and have yet to develope a taste for fish popsicles.

All you have to do is visit a lamp manufacturer's site, find the # of lumens for a lamp and divide by the number of watts....it's already tabulated, no reason to reinvent the wheel.

Product catalogue

I think the person was looking for a cost comparison chart, not really wanting to make there own. I don't know if dividing the lumens by the wattage will give you an accurate power consumption. But let say to make the math easy, you have a florescent light that puts out 10,000 lumens at 100 watts. 10,000 divided by 100= 100. Is that 100 kilowatts? Is that per minute, per hour? Also how would you figure out the energy consumption for appliances that don't put out light (lumens)?

It needs to be broken down into kilowatt hours in order to be able to figure out the cost per hour to run. Then the actual kilowatt hours can be multiplied by the cost per kilowatt hr on the electric bill.

I don't know how accurate it is but this link may help.
APPLIANCE COST CALCULATOR

As I mentioned once you have it plugged in, you can use a KILL A WATT meter like the P3 Kill A Watt meter to tell exactly what it costs, as well as monitor cost and usage (of any electric device/appliance). The Kill A Watt meters come in all shapes and kinds, with many different options, and for as little as $18 and up. Most home improvement stores carry them.

P3 Kill A Watt Electricity Load Meter and Monitor
Kill A Watt P4320 Electricity Usage Monitoring Surge Strip
P3 International P4480 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor with Electronic Graphic Timer

If you divide lumens by watts, how would you come out with kilowatts?
Watts/1000 = kilowatts
(Lamp watts/1000) X hours of operation = kilowatt hours
KWH X cost/kwh = cost

Thanks willard3,
Although I'm simply not sure that the lumens plays a part in the calculation at all. There are many devices that use electricity that don't put out light at all, yet energy consumption for those devices have been able to calculated. If memory serves, the calculations are determined by the watts and amp draw. Also any Resistance (Ohms) will play a part. I don't remember if voltage needs to be figured in, or if higher voltage just helps push through more amps. But bottom line, every cost calculate I have seen relays only on knowing the wattage. So with all that in mind, I just don't think that knowing the lumens plays a part in the calculation at all.

Your local hydro shop will have a catalog that will have a chart for different size magnetic ballasts. the chart brakes down hours ran and $ per kw giving you a general idea of how much it will cost to run. I know a that a 400w lumatek with a eye super hps will run at 423-425w. I saw that on a different forum

I'm going to go against everthning you may have heard about lights. I ran a test this summer with tomatoes out side and inside with full sun no shade. my inside plants grew twice as big fruited first the out side in natural light.

my bulbs are the cheap $1 at lowes f32 4ft bulbs and my lumens meter reads about 1200 in the center of my light fixture. plants grow fine

to compare i have a system that grows just as well with 1200 watts hps on light rail movers. just cost me more money.

I now believe its the closeness to the light that makes it less money to run. hps put out lots of light but you have to keep it so far away. in florecent the plant can grow right on it.

To much energy being used on heat rather than light out put. and to be fair my 1200 wat hps is in a position of where i run 768 watts of florecents so its a savings of a third. but no light movers, no a/c just fans. its as good and cheaper in the long run.

I now believe and am building a new light fixture for my out door green house that is as simple as one 8 foot florecent bulb mounted right down the center on my grow pot going vertical to the roof and i will be letting the plant envelope the bulb during growth. this way i figure i currently get only part of the bulb shining on the plant so i have to add additional bulbs around it to surround it. now i will have 360 degrees of bulb from one bulb and i belive this will be the same as four bulbs.

with this theory i will go from hps 1200 watts to my current 768 watts to 288 watts. why shine on the plant from the outside when you can go to the center of the plant and shine out all the way around.

Isn't this a question on lighting?
If you have lighting, you have lumens
If you have lumens in an electric light, it takes watts to make them.

This is physics and not a matter of opinion.

No,
The question is about calculating electricity cost. Just because it's referring to lighting makes no difference. You calculate energy consumption using the same formula whether it's a light, refrigerator, radio, TV, computer, electric fan, pond pump etc. That is not an opinion, they teach Ohm's Law (current (amps), volts and Resistance are the 3 parts of electricity) in school, although it has been a lot of years sense I was in school. Watts is a measurement of the rate of energy conversion, and if I remember correctly is also a measurement of the heat generated by that conversion. No where is lumens (a measure of the power of light perceived by the human eye) mentioned as any measurement (or part of) of electricity.

Once the amount of energy used is determined, then it can be multiplied by the price per Kilowatt that the electric company charges (easily found on your electric bill).

Seems like a lighting question to me.............

Watts and lumens are both measures of energy, even if you don't know it.

Oh my goodness, the original question has seemed to have gotten lost in a massive amount of extra information.

Let me jump into the fray..hehe

Ok, lighting costs are easily calculated and I can tell you how to do it with no pain or strain.

First, let me say that what you pay for is "Watts Used Per Month".

When you have used One Thousand Watts for One Hour, you have used exactly One Kilowatt.

So, if you use 250 watts for 4 hours, you have; 4 times 250 watts equals 1000 watts used in 4 hours. So, you have used One Kilowatt in 4 hours.

If you look either on your account with your electric company or on your bill, you'll see how many Kilowatts you used for the entire month.

You'll also see how much you paid for using them as your final total bill.

Yes, I know that includes 900 taxes and fees. I don't care. You paid for it anyway.

If you divide your total bill by the amount of kilowatts you used for the month, you'll see how much each kilowatt cost you, including all the fees and such. I do this every month and it comes out to within a dollar or two of what my bill is.

Like last month:

Total Bill: 203.94

Kilowatts Used: 1994

Now: 203.94 divided by 1994 = 0.102

That means I paid 10.2 cents per/kilowatt that I used, overall.

I read my meter and do this equation every month. It's always within a dollar or two.

I see how much I used and do the math. Then I know how much my bill will be.

So, that said, a watt is a watt is a watt is a watt. One watt costs exactly what one watt costs. It makes absolutely no difference what used the watt.

Now we're at the root of the answer:

If you are using a 400 watt light, and it is really using 400 watts, then for every hour you have it on, it will consume 400 watts. If you have it on 24 hours a day, it will use 9600 watts, or 9.6 kilowatts.

If you pay 10.2 cents per/kilowatt like I do, then that light will have cost you 98 cents for each day you ran it for 24 hours.

See how easy that is?

Now, here's the proverbial monkey wrench in the works...

But, but, but....MY 400 watt HPS bulb says it will put out 430 watts of light!

Ok, here's the only REAL answer to that.

I own a small meter called a "Kill-A-Watt" meter ($25). I plug it into an outlet, then plug a device into the meter. I then set it to record how many watts are being used.

I leave it on like that for exactly 24 hours to the very second.

It shows me on it's readout, EXACTLY how many watts that device used in that 24 hour period of time.

NOW I know how many watts that light REALLY uses.

From that point, it's as easy as I've shown above to figure out almost exactly how much your light will cost you each month by just doing the math.

No problemo!

willard3
Lights are not the only things that use electricity, energy and electricity are not the same thing (even if you want to think so). The electric company does not consider or charge by lumens. If they did then they would not be able to charge anything for running your refrigerator all the day, except when you open the door and the little light goes on. But then all you would need to do is take out the bulb and all that electricity would be free. The electric company (that charges you for the electricity) does not care if it's a light or not, they charge the same regardless. You just cant get past the word "light" to see the picture.

NorEastFla
I agree everything you've said. I had thought about using the wattage of the light bulb itself, but just didn't know if that would be real accurate. Like you mentioned the actual wattage may very. Also I know the ballasts used by some lights must draw wattage/electricity. I too recommended using the Kill-A-Watt meter, I even left several links to some in my second post in this thread as a bit of info for anyone it may help. Although the original poster of this thread was hoping to be able to compare costs before buying the lights, so I'm not sure if it helped him with the exact question. But I agree they are very useful.


P.S. I noticed that you never mentioned "lumens" in the entire post. hehe.

You're right about the ballasts also costing money. It's a rule of thumb in the power world that any device that creates heat also uses electricity. Even a wire that is nothing but an extension cord will cause a very small increase in total wattage used by the device it's connected to.

I have used that Kill-A-Watt Meter so many times on the various devices in my home that it's paid for itself in nothing more than my own piece of mind.

You can even figure out exactly what toasting a slice of bread costs with it...hahaha

Lumens become important only when calculating *how much* light is needed and/or given to a plant. The medicinal marijuana growers in many states now find it necessary to calculate maximum lumens for optimum growth of their medication. I know an elderly lady who uses it for her arthritis and swears it helps her more than anything she's ever used. The growers of those plants really get into how much of this and that they use.

If I were growing exotic plants in an indoor, regulated environment type grow, then I would need to know precisely how many lumens per/square foot of plant canopy I was using, so that my plant growth would be maximized for the periodic plant sales.

Lumens, however, have nothing to do with power consumption really. They have more to do with plant growth and the ability to *see* in the various spectrum.

Photons being the physical part of light, wattage being the power side, spectrum being the type and lumens being the amount of photons of each spectrum.

Whew! That was a mouthful! hahaha

NorEastFla
Again I agree 100% with what your saying. I was taught in school that anything that causes resistance (ohms) generates heat and uses electricity. Like you mentioned even a extension cord has resistance and is a factor in power consumption. I don't claim know everything, but that doesn't mean that I just believe anything that anyone says either. If it doesn't make sense to me, I ask questions (sorry if that offends you willard3).

I have known about the Kill-A-Watt Meters for about two years now. I saw one on a show about being green, and decided to look into them. I still have not gotten one, but would like one because I would like to know just how much each appliance in the house is costing to run. I grow everything outside so hydroponic lighting is not an issue for me (at least now), but I may do some indoor growing in the future. I also know they are easy to get, I have seen them down at Home Depot and Lowe's, I just always seem to have something else to spend the money on.

And again what you say about Lumens is very true (I was only being sarcastic in my P.S.). But I agree that Lumens are essential to plant growth and photosynthesis, and even a form of energy in that regard. It's just not as a form of electricity as willard3 would have me believe. But simply just a measurement of preservable light (the key word being "preservable") to the human eye. I also know there are meters that will tell you the Lumens at the distance you place it from the light (I don't have one of those meters either). But for any indoor commercial growing operation that would be a must for cost efficacy.

P.S. When I retire, I plan on getting glaucoma so I can get one of those medical marijuana cards myself. It has been 20 years sense I have partaked. But when I'm sitting on the front porch in a rocking chair, I'm rolling a duby to go with my rum and coke regardless.

Hey, GpsFrontier. I hope when your retirement comes, it's as fun as mine is currently being. I planned for a lot of years and now I'm reaping the benefits of that planning. I'm certainly not rich, but I've enough now to live the rest of my life comfortably and as secure as I can be.

So far, I've grown all of my hydroponic veggies inside. The bugs and weather here in North Florida are too much for a hydroponic grow without an enclosure, and thus far, I haven't had the time or money to build what I'm going to this winter outside.

Next year, my fantasy outdoor hydroponic garden will finally be a reality.

I'm planning it for an area of 20' x 20' for the first year and will use next year to tweak the systems and layout. In 2012, I'll be going full blown commercial with about a half acre of hydroponic veggies that I'll sell at my own hydroponic veggie stand.

I'm in every hydroponic site on the net, (that I could find anyway), and I've seen Willard at several of them. He's actually a very informed person about hydroponics, but like all of us, he isn't perfect in his knowledge. I'm sure sorry that you and he got off on the wrong foot, and I hope he'll be back to share his knowledge with all of us here.

This has been a very good thread here. Lots of information for those who are getting into hydroponics. I love hydroponic gardening so much that I'm afraid I'm a bit of a fanatic about it. Once someone gets me on the subject, I'm likely to talk their ear off.

NorEastFla
Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against willard3 in general. I may not be the smartest person on the planet, but I'm far from the dumbest also. If something someone says doesn't make common sense to me, I don't just believe it because they want me to. I'll ask questions in order to make sense out of what there saying. But just because they may give a reply, doesn't mean that it makes scene or is true either. Until they give me a reason to believe them, well that's just their tough luck. Then when they basically demand that I just believe them because they say so (that's where my problem with him in this thread started), well I guess I just don't respond well to that type of attitude. For someone to demand I do/believe what they say, well all I can say is that they better be a police officer, judge, or something with some real authority over me. Then they may have a chance.

P.S. I am very interested in your progress on your setups and plans, as you know we have very similar goals. It's frustrating for me though right now because I just can't seem to come up with the money I need to get things rolling. I plan to start some commercial systems in the back yard, then when I have things dialed in. I have talked to a local nursery owner who has 9 acres of land that's willing to work something out with me setting up a commercial growing operation there at his nursery.

I am very interested in you gentlemen's progress toward the commercial side of your hydro efforts.

I am just starting the process, but my 3rd and 4th chess moves ahead have me entertaining the feasibility of not only feeding my family, but commercial ventures as well.

I look forward to seeing your progress and am very interested in what the number crunching turns up.

I've started another thread so we can move this off-topic conversation out of this lighting thead.

Here's the link:

http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...onic-farm.html



.

Lighting
 

I'm using 6ea 100watt output cfl's in the 6500k spectrum.
6 x 100 = 600watts of light.
These bulbs use 23 watts ea.
23x6= 138 watts.
138watts ./. 120 volts= 1.15 amps.

Same for flowering except bulbs are 2700k.

my utility bill for October was $58.60.

As far as penetration, the blubs are in clamp on shop light fixtures and I can move them where needed and my plants are doing great.

This may not work for everybody but for a $58.60 utility bill, it works for me.

Just a note about your wattage. The "equivalent" wattage is a "Brightness" perceived by the human eye, and has nothing at all to do with plant usable lumens.

What you have as far as your plants are concerned is 138 watts of total light.

Can you post pics of your plants growing under this amount of light? I'd love to see them.

To expand a little on my last post, a 23 watt CFL has 1,380 total lumens output with a 60 lumens per/watt efficiency.

They also have self-contained ballasts that can, if used in an enclose area, result in quite a heat buildup that could heat the reservoir temperature and/or grow chamber temperatures.

Light-bulb efficiency is measured in terms of lumens per watt—the amount of light produced for each watt of electricity consumed. More lumens per watt means more light for your money.

Incandescent: 10-17 lumens per/watt

Halogen: 10-22 lumens per/watt

White LED: 20-60 lumens per/watt

Mercury Vapor: 25-60 lumens per/watt

Linear Fluorescent: 30-110 lumens per/watt

Compact Fluorescent (CFL): 40-70 lumens per/watt

High Pressure Sodium (HPS): 50-140 lumens per/watt

Metal Halide (MH): 70-115 lumens per/watt

***
Light on a surface (such as a plant canopy) is referred to as illuminance, which is typically represented by footcandles (lumens per square foot, equal to 10.76 lux) or lux (lumens per square meter, equal to 0.092903 footcandles).

Most leafy plants like to have a minimum of 5 thousand lumens per/sq ft of plant canopy. You can get by on 3 thousand per/sq ft, but 5K will make them grow much better and contain much more health giving nutrients and vitamins for your body.

You discover the "Lumens per/sq ft" by adding up the total lumens of your lights and dividing that by the number of square feet of plant canopy you have.

With 6ea, 23 watt CFLs, you have 8,280 total lumens. At the lowest minimum lumens of 3K per/sq ft, that gives you enough light for 2.76 square feet of plant canopy if you expect good growth, short internodal length and average fruiting.

2.7 square feet is the same as an area of 397.44 square inches, or an area about 20 inches by 20 inches.

As you can see, that's not much area. You'll find that HPS is the best all-around lighting for plants indoors. Great spectrum, remote ballasts and a very good lumens per/watt output.

A 150 watt HPS will have about 16,000 total lumens. At 3K per/sq ft, that's enough lumens for an area of 5.33 sq ft or an area of 768 square inches or an area of 28 inches by 28 inches.

An area covered with multiple 150 watt HPS will be much better than an area covered by one larger bulb. The lights can be closer to the plant canopy and each plant receives a much better light and an efficiency of 106.66 lumens per/watt as opposed to the 60 lumens per/watt the 23 watt CFLs will give you. It's a much better bang for your buck.

Awesome post NorEast. I pulled that onto a word doc and saved it for reference.

:cool:

Good info. The part about using multiple 150w HPS bulbs-vs-a larger blub really makes sense.
Thanks for the great advice.

Hence my previous post, ie,

If you divide lumens by watts, how would you come out with kilowatts?
Watts/1000 = kilowatts
(Lamp watts/1000) X hours of operation = kilowatt hours
KWH X cost/kwh = cost

You just don't understand energy very well.

I understand dividing watts by 1000 to get kilowatts (a kilowatt being one 1000'th of a watt), then multiplying by hours of operation. But nowhere is LUMENS a part of that calculation. Again, energy comes in many forms, and is not the same thing as electricity. Even the wind has energy, or a tornado, even a waterfall has energy, even a fart has energy in the form of methane gas. There are even some farms that are converting the energy trapped in cow farts, into usable energy to power generators. You don't seem to understand the difference between energy and electricity, or you wouldn't keep referring to one when meaning another.

Once again
The form of energy of lumens is "A measure of the power of light PERCEIVED by the human eye"

I'm not sure why it's so important to you that I just believe that a "lamps lumen output" has anything at all to do with calculating its electrical cost. But you also don't seem to understand that the electrical costs of other devices "OTHER THAN LAMPS" need to be calculated also, in order for the electric company to be able to charge for the electricity they use. Fact is lights/lamps are not special, you don't have two electric meters on your house, one for lamps and another for everything else. You can keep trying if it's so important to you (and I won't say never), but good luck convincing me.

One Kilowatt is not a 1000th of a watt but 1Kw=1000 watt. 1 Kw is also what you call 1 unit in the US and at most other parts of the world.

If knowing how much watt a bulb consumes (in Kw/h) and approximately how much lumens it produces, you can in fact calculate both: 1. consumption per hour, day, month etc. and 2. if knowing the surface you need to cover, how many watt per lumens per square ft a specific setup consumes and costs. Yes you can, but you need to know how.

Example with Metal Halide = 70-115 lumens per/watt and assuming that 5000 lumens per/sq ft are appropriate and/or sufficient for the purpose.

Let's assume that one 150 watt Metal Halide bulb would produce (for simplicity as an average from 70-115) 100 lumens per watt and thus producing 15000 lumens. Hence be sufficient for a surface of 3 sq ft. And to cover a surface of 21 sq', you'd need 7 bulbs of 150 Watt, which corresponds to 1050 watt and brings the total consumption of these 7 bulbs close enough to 1 Kw/h.

Making things as even as we can for the sake of simplicity while still keeping the maths accurate enough for the purpose, we can safely say that with 7 MH bulbs, we cover 20 sq ft, produce close to 100.000 lumens and are consuming 1 Kw/h.

Now we can easily and actually put watt in direct relation with lumens or square foot and vis versa and make our own equation for future projections and estimates.

Of course that other premisses and/or choices (of bulbs and lumens per sq ft needed) would also need a different "mathematical spadework", - and most probably not end up in such even numbers! But any 5th grader should be able to take over from here and transfer the described method to another model... without a doubt and without arguing, - right? :)

Luches
Back again I see. What's the matter, you've been logging in about every other day for months and months. Do you miss me?

Yes, I did have that backwards (1000 watts= 1 kilowatt), but it hardly changes the fact that lumens are not part of the equation to calculate the cost to run a any electrical device (even if it is a light). The way I see it, with your equation your using lumens to determine how many light's are needed to cover a given area. That would be the right use for lumens for an equation. But that was not what the question was about, nor was it the point of any disagreement.

The question had nothing to do with how many lights were needed to cover a given area. It was about comparing "the cost it takes to run each type of grow light" in hopes of buying ones that would save them money to run over time, no mater what the area that needs to be covered is. The question asks about different strengths, but needs to be compared to equal strength (150, 400, 600 watts etc., or 1000 lumens to 1000 lumens etc.). The question does not ask anything about lumen output and/or comparing them, that's a different question altogether.

Your first post in months and true to form you still could not refrain from insults with your crack "But any 5th grader should be able to take over from here and transfer the described method to another mode." That is the exact reason that I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for you at all.

And what's this crack about "without a doubt and without arguing, - right?," That's your ego, and way of saying everyone must just believe you without question, simply because you say so. As if you were some sort of authority over the rest of the world, and you know very well I will not be told what to do by you. I don't recognize your self appointed badge, so if you want to continue with your digs on this forum I will be happy to oblige.

Things are often a bit complex, but become very simple as soon as you make sense of them and let them work for you. One only needs to be pragmatical and find a sound working solution within the laws of physics. Either for one self or even better, one that works for everyone. "Making one's points" always ends up in arguing and becomes quite a luxury and a loss of time for others.

I don't know what it is about for others and I don't care about the size or the lumens output of their Egos. I am merely interested in understanding useful things and putting them to practice accordingly, respectively helping others to do so.

luches
You have posted 168 previous posts in the past before your recent postings, and I have not forgotten, and nor will I forget your total LACK of RESPECT you've shown towards others as well as me in most of them. "Respectively" trying to help others is simply the last thing you wind up doing. I have no reason to believe that you have turned over a new leaf, so you are mistaken you think there is a new beginning. It would take 168 consecutive new posts, all practicing respect towards others before I would even consider thinking that you may have turned over a new leaf. Good luck with that... Even your first post back, you have show your lack of respect towards others.

Just passing through
 

I have posted a simple mathematical method that allows to put lumens and watt in relation in order to be able to calculate running consumption and even cost per lumens and sq ft. This method only works if- and after choosing a type of light source, of course. If it is use- and helpful for anyone - so much the better. If not, simply ignore it and go on figuring out your own.

Your obvious resentfulness and cravings for revenge on the other hand are none of my concern, GPS - as that's indeed your own funeral!

Don't you worry anyway, I am just passing through :)
Cheesing it, you bet! :p

I'm not concerned with revenge.
If that's what you want to call it when you mistreat and bully people, then wonder why they wont give you any respect (as I have no doubt your huge EGO sees it), call it revenge then if you want. Either way, you wont get any respect from me. Simply because you don't treat other people with any, so therefore you don't deserve any. Cry me a river, and boohoo to you.


P.S. I'm perfectly OK with my own funeral thanks, don't spend too much time worrying about me in that department. But thanks for your concern anyway.

If you have the facts, pound on the facts. If you have the knowledge, pound on the knowledge. If you have the experience, pound on the experience. If you don't have either, you can always pound on the table and/or on the behavior of others.

Just your huge EGO speaking again. What makes you think you are so special that you are only person on the planet to get facts (opinions) from, even if your opinion (what you call facts) were worth a dam. You must have extra wide doors to get that FAT HEAD inside the house. Even if what you call your facts were worth money, I would just flush it down the toilet. I always consider the source of any facts, and you are a simply a worthless source. You seem to think that you have some special knowledge that gives you a license to treat people like crap. I'll get my knowledge from a descent human being, I simply don't put up your type of attitude. Not to mention NOT taking any responsibility for your treatment toward others. That shows bad character on top of a huge ego, and people with bad character often have bad ethics too (they go hand and hand).

Your EGO must be taking a beating. I just can't figure out why you try so hard to bully me into giving you respect, you must want it very bad. But you lost any chance of my respect a long, long, long time ago You've known this, yet you still continue to cry about the consequences of your actions. Grow up already, and take it like a man. Your like a old girlfriend that's so needy they just cant let go and move on. It must hurt you deeply to know that I don't need you. They get themselves into such a depression that they don't feel life is worth living anymore when there's plenty of other fish in the sea. But I guess it's like that old saying, it's what you cant have you want the most. I think it is so sweet that you want to save me from pounding my head on the table, but your still worthless.

You guys killed this thread.

Why not use the private messaging?

Jeesh.

Privet messaging does no good with luches he just doesn't care about anyone else, and if you ignore it he just gets worse. He craves attention just like a little kid. If you ignore his yelling, he just gets louder. And there's never any reasoning with him either.

The thing to which I take exception is to GPS Frontier claiming any knowledge of physics, electricity or lighting. He/she dosen't understand it and it would be a help if he/she admitted it at least to him/herself.

GPS's posts are either a clear demonstration of this lack of knowledge or a bad joke. Reading and learning something about lighting/electricity would help in these discussions.

You can take exception with all you want, that's your prerogative. And remember I can do the same. But I can tell you that I'm very comfortable with my knowledge (not that I know everything), and I simply wont be bullied into believing something just because someone that I don't knows demands it. Even in 7'th and 8'th grade, my science teacher (same teacher both years) would have the entire room set up as a lab at least once a week. Where we had to disassemble things like lamps, motors etc. at different station's around the room, explain all the parts and their function, then put it all back together so it works properly. My high high school auto shop teacher that I had for 5 semesters did exactly the same thing (including alternators and starters)' except we each had one at our own desk that we had to do by ourselves.

I also took electronics in High school for two semesters, and along with the textbook learning we had to build things like small radios from kits, making all the solder connections in the right places ourselves. Beyond school, I have also replaced all the electrical outlets (including all GFI outlets) in my moms old house. That includes behind the refrigerator and under counters like for the disposal. I also updated all the electrical switches in that house to the flat switches. There wasn't a outlet or switch that didn't get replaced, including all outlets and switches outside and in the garage.

I have also replaced the florescent lighting (including ballasts) in the kitchen, striped the wood molding and refinished it to give it a updated look. I have also added new security lighting in both the front and back of the house, and added an outdoor light fixture in the atrium, as well as installed the new electrical boxes for all the new light switches. That included cutting into the drywall and mounting them to the studs. Not to mention all the miscellaneous things like replacing existing light fixtures, door bells, thermostats etc.. Through all of that only once did I ever have a problem. There were two outlets where the voltage output was low (80-90 volts), and even after replacing them again it was still low. So we called a electrician in and he not only told me that I did a great job saving my mom thousands of dollars, but he also said the problem had nothing to do with my work. It was due to a ground short within the wall, and I would probably never have found it.


So again I don't clam to know everything, but I'm far from ignorant about electricity also, and I'm very comfortable with what I do know. Even if you don't like it. So when you say
Then when I give an example based on exactly what you stated "you have a florescent light that puts out 10,000 lumens at 100 watts. 10,000 divided by 100= 100. Is that 100 kilowatts?" this is your reply
The problem here is you forgot to answer the question. You mention lamp watts, watts, kilowatts, but never mention lumens. The whole basis of your theory and the point of my question (in response to "find the # of lumens for a lamp and divide by the number of watts....") You simply started with watts and convert watts into kilowatts. So where's the lumen's you so adamantly referred to? You don't even seem to know. I gave you plenty of opportunity to explain, you just can't. Yet, you expect me to just believe you because you say so, even when you can't seem to figure it out yourself. Even if I wanted to, you have not supplied an accurate equation (showing your work) to calculate it with that would help anyone. You also have not supplied any information other than just your say so on your flawed theory. Talk about a joke, that's a good one.

Then to top that off you get offended when I choose not to believe in that theory. Then you resort to attacking my intelligence because I don't believe in your "divide lumens by watts" theory, rather than simply supplying links to sources that would support your theory. Again, that's what a real joke looks like.

You, sir, are a poseur and your ignorance is not a virtue.