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Planning my setup, input needed


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  #1  
Old 04-23-2010, 03:21 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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Default Planning my setup, input needed

Dear members,

I arrived at the country where I want to try out hydroponics. The primary goal is supplying our restaurant with some fresh and safe vegetables. Most store bought veggies are full of pesticides.

Living in South East Asia the temp can be pretty high, summer 30C - 39C. This is why I am thinking about using the deep pond floating raft technique where possible and an ebb and flow system of Dutch buckets (if I can find them here) for plants that can not be planted in deep pond floating raft systems. Mainly peppers and tomato.

The big ammount of water in a deep pond system would heat up less if made big enough and it provides some protection in case of a power outage. I will install a UPS however. Over time maybe a generator.
The Dutch bucket system is chosen for almost the same reason, a small reservoir inside the buckets gives a small buffer in case the power goes down. By putting the tanks in the ground I hope the sollution will stay within acceptable heat limits.

All would be placed under a rainproof construction together with shade clothes and insectnetting on the sides.

Questions:
- I have seen various installations of the deep pond technique.
1 A simple small tank with airstones (like in the forum here)
2 A longer tank with on one end a horizontal pipe that drips sollution in the thank and on the other side a hole where it flows back into the tank. This creates a small waterflow.
3 A large swimmingpool size bath full of rafts.

- What system is better? Or is it a matter of trial and error?

- How do they aerate the water in the large pool size ponds? Youtube has a video of a Canadian? company that works like that. Very impressive but the exact setup was not clear to me.

- Any thoughts or recommondations on my setup?

Thanks for all input. Of course pictures will follow as soon as everything is up and running

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  #2  
Old 04-23-2010, 05:03 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Living in South East Asia the temp can be pretty high, summer 30C - 39C. This is why I am thinking about using the deep pond floating raft technique where possible and an ebb and flow system of Dutch buckets (if I can find them here) for plants that can not be planted in deep pond floating raft systems. Mainly peppers and tomato.
Not sure what that temp is in Fahrenheit, but I am guessing it is about 100+ degrees Fahrenheit. In Asia I would probably be more concerned with the humidity, more than with what the heat like I deal with here. I am not sure Where/why you plan to buy dutch buckets. They work just fine but I can build them much cheaper in my area using 2-3-5 gallon buckets (less than $3 each for a 5 gallon bucket). They just need to fit inside each other the same way, then modified appropriately.
Quote:
1 A simple small tank with airstones (like in the forum here)
Not sure the question here. Yes air stones provide air/oxygen to the roots. Especially in a water culture system, but is the question does this work? Or how much air is needed? It works, but how much is needed depends greatly on the size of the system. As well as other factors like temperature and if there is any addition of dissolved Oxygen like H2O2 (or even 03 from ozone treatment) into the nutreint solution.
Quote:
2 A longer tank with on one end a horizontal pipe that drips solution in the thank and on the other side a hole where it flows back into the tank. This creates a small water flow.
This creates water flow yes, but does not introduce much needed oxygen/air into the solution by itself. I'm not sure if you are referring to a typical NFT system, or a overflow system for a water culture system. I assume it's the latter.
Quote:
3 A large swimmingpool size bath full of rafts.
Not really sure how deep the swimming pools are for you, but it shouldn't need to be more than 1 to 2 feet deep, the root systems wont need more than that.
Quote:
What system is better? Or is it a matter of trial and error?
Nether is best as far as I can tell. They both have there advantages and it simply depends on what you plan to grow in it that makes it a good choice or not. Tall plants that need support wont be the best choice in a water culture (floating raft). The design dimensions make a big difference also, as to how much weight it can support without failing. But it comes down to a few factors on if this is this is the best choice for the job, Amount of nutrient solution required for the operation, and weather the structure can support the intended plants. If it cant support the plants, you can always build a support structure. But weather it is cost effective compared to using a different system is the issue that I think you are concerned with.
Quote:
How do they aerate the water in the large pool size ponds?
I don't know how much water you are talking about (gallons), but With a number of ways. Oxygen in the water, and water circulation are the keys for suspending roots in a nutrient solution. Otherwise they will suffocate. Large amount of air stones in a large setup may not be practical. In that case water flow is even more important. Large operations may even use Ozone treatment, this adds even more dissolved oxygen to the water, and inhibits root disease. Cost can be an issue though. Large air pumps with good water circulation may be a better option for most smaller operations.
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Old 04-23-2010, 05:45 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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Hi GPS,

Thanks for your reply. Humidty can be a problem yes, I will see what methods are available to balance it out a bit.
Do you have info on creating something like the Dutch bucket system? Is it in one of your setup post here in the forum?

About 1, 2 and 3: I described the different kinds of deep water cultures I did come across. Just wondered if any of them was best I will look into large air pumps and ozone treatment as those seem the most likely things used in really big operations. Will start out small first, just using the simple bubbler system. The system I seen listed under 2 did not seem to have great results during this high temps. Not sure if it was lack of oxygen or just plain heat.

I'm off to google Celcius to Fahrenheit and Liter to Gallon. Then we all talk the same language haha.
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Old 04-23-2010, 07:00 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Do you have info on creating something like the Dutch bucket system?
Yes, once you know what and why a system works you can design almost anything.
Quote:
Is it in one of your setup post here in the forum?
No, it's a simple design though, 1 or 100 buckets it;s the same thing. And given the information I can easily design it and show you how to, and what you need. A dutch bucket system is nothing more than a bucket in a bucket, and the bottom bucket holds moisture and a return line. But that is not what makes it work. Your concern that it will hold reserve moisture in case of power frailer is correct, How much depends on your climate and how long (reserve moisture or not).
Quote:
About 1, 2 and 3: I described the different kinds of deep water cultures I did come across. Just wondered if any of them was best I will look into large air pumps and ozone treatment as those seem the most likely things used in really big operations. Will start out small first, just using the simple bubbler system. The system I seen listed under 2 did not seem to have great results during this high temps. Not sure if it was lack of oxygen or just plain heat.
Well it is hard to give particulars when you don't know the exact environment. Before I can give any real advice (other than more air is better) I need to know how the system is planed to be designed, how many plants the system is planed to hold, the environment that it's planed for. Also what the financial investment. you cant build the same system for $50 that you can for $5,000. But knowing where to put the money is what is the important thing
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:31 PM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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I will leave this thread as it is for now. The coming week I will make a more detailled plan of what we want to grow and how much. I need to check the restaurant usage/vegetable prices and also will have a look at the local markets in case we want to grow bigger. When I have the numbers and a better idea of the size, I will update my post here. Thanks for the advice so far
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:16 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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As promised an update on my previous post. A bit later as planned because I got ill from the food or weather for a short time

Budget:
Max. $5000, we prefer that items used in our test setup can also be extended to a final production location.

Location:
Our first try at hydroponics will be located around our house. If it works out well we will look for a bigger and more suitable location.

Anyway here are the dimensions that can be used for testing:
A - Length 12.5 meter, Width 5 meter
B - Length 9 meter, width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
C - Length 15 meter, Width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
D - Indoor room 2.5 x 2.5 meter for testing temp. controlled growing of lettuce and cauliflower

Plants:
The past week I have gone through the vegetable order list of our restaurant which lists all locally available vegetables and their use in the restaurant. After filtering it out for items suitable for hydronics I compiled the following list (listing is in order of profitability) high to low. Price can change a bit depending on the season. I have yet to find out all specific plant requirements regarding PH, nutrient mix, planting distances, etc.

Vegetables for Dutch Bucket / Drip / Ebb & flow:
- Herbs: Mint, Lemon Grass, Thai Basil: Horapa + Kapao, Coriander
- Others: Bird Eye Chili/Prik Kii Nuu, Bell Pepper, Tomato, Short Green Bean, Long Green Bean, Short Eggplant, Asian Cucumber, Long Egg Plant, Bitter Gourd

Deep Pond Floating Raft:
- Scallion, Green Lettuce, Chinese Cabbage, Kale, White Cabbage, Cantonese, Bok Choy, Morning Glory

NFT or Deep Pond indoor temp. controlled
- Lettuce: butterhead, red/green oak, romaine. Salanova type (Dutch seed)
- Cauliflower

For most deep pond vegetables our restaurant uses about 2 KG a day.
Herbs around 0.5 to 1 KG a day.

System:
The systems would be setup within a protected environment, aphid nets for the sides and plastic as rain cover + shade clothes for plants that require it.

For my setup I would like to use 2 main systems, depending on the type of vegetable we grow:
- DIY Dutch Bucket System for plants that either grow tall or are bushy and as such not suitable for deep pond. Small setup, mainly used to produce the listed herbs. Other plants only for testing purpose.

- DIY Deep Pond or NFT system as our main production units.
I am not sure which system to choose as both have advantages and disadvantages.
Deep Pond has a large water buffer, this is important as in rare occasions the power still will be cut sometimes. However it need a way to add enough oxygen in it. Bubblers might get clogged up from salts of the nutrient solution.

NFT in a non-temp controlled environment might result in too high rootzone temp. Furthermore if pumps fail due to a power outage, the crop will be lost pretty quick.

Nutrient mix:
I do have some imported nutrient solution but it might become too expensive if we grow commercially. I am looking into nutrient recipes and the ingredients of those. Most are available here but ph up / down might be a problem.

Questions:

- What design would you propose given all this input, GPS Frontier?

- How would you exactly design the Dutch bucket system when build by yourself?

- What would be the most (cost) effective way to get enough oxygen in the deep pond system?

- PH Up/Down: Some people did suggest using lemon juice for ph down and baking soda for ph up. Should this be used or is it better to import PH up/down if it is really nowhere to be found in here?

- Could I use 1 nutrient recipe or do I need to create multiple? Since most vegetables I are about to grow are greens. Not much flower/blossom. Except maybe Cauliflower.

- Is it possible to control humidity when the sides of the structure are aphid nets? What is the best way to control it?
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Old 05-10-2010, 03:54 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Lot's of good information, I will need a little time but a few things off the top of my head.
Quote:
Max. $5000,
I would recommend if the max budget is $5000 to shoot for a budget of around $2500-$3000. That way you'll have a buffer, unexpected things "WILL" come up, and you don't want to go under because of it. Also Do you have any experience with growing any of the plants/crops you are considering. That makes a big difference in any suggestions.
Quote:
Location:
Our first try at hydroponics will be located around our house. If it works out well we will look for a bigger and more suitable location.

Anyway here are the dimensions that can be used for testing:
A - Length 12.5 meter, Width 5 meter
B - Length 9 meter, width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
C - Length 15 meter, Width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
D - Indoor room 2.5 x 2.5 meter for testing temp. controlled growing of lettuce and cauliflower
I am not sure how to interpret these, is there 4 separate areas with different dimensions, or the same area with different configurations depending on design?
Quote:
The systems would be setup within a protected environment, aphid nets for the sides and plastic as rain cover + shade clothes for plants that require it.
Is this already built, or part of the max budget.
Quote:
For my setup I would like to use 2 main systems, depending on the type of vegetable we grow:
- DIY Dutch Bucket System for plants that either grow tall or are bushy and as such not suitable for deep pond. Small setup, mainly used to produce the listed herbs. Other plants only for testing purpose.
This is very reasonable depending on the reservoir size and crop recriminates.
Quote:
What design would you propose given all this input, GPS Frontier?
I have a lot of ideas, and designs in mind, but I don't know what resources you have to work with. I know your budget, but I don't know if you can get the same materials I can for the same prices. That will have a huge effect on the over all design, choice of crops and ultimately the profitability in the long run. I also don't know if you plan year round production of the same crops, or switching with the seasons. I ask because heating and cooling systems can/will cost money.
Quote:
How would you exactly design the Dutch bucket system when build by yourself?
This really depends on materials available to you, the principal is the same. A bucket in a bucket drip system that holds a small amount of nutrient solution at the bottom. Tubing for return and feed lines. Large enough buckets for the root system, and a level platform to run it on (un-level will take more work but can be done also). Personally I would decide by the size of the projected root system of the plant. Tomato plants (5 gallon buckets) pepper plants (3 gallon buckets), lettuce or strawberry plants 1/2 gallon or so etc.. I can build a 5 gallon dutch bucket for under $10 each. $2.50 a bucket, x2 about $5, the drain through hole $1.97. that's about $7. But I have no idea what is cost effective in your area.


Your concerns about power outages, nutrient temp and delivery are well founded. Ultimately it will come down to design, funds and resources.
Quote:
- What would be the most (cost) effective way to get enough oxygen in the deep pond system?
A large volume air pump in combination with water flow, like falling water or a water fall (the higher the fall, the better). Or if funds are not available to do both, go with the water circulation method, and don't allow the water temp get too high (you shouldn't allow it to get high anyway).
Quote:
- PH Up/Down: Some people did suggest using lemon juice for ph down and baking soda for ph up. Should this be used or is it better to import PH up/down if it is really nowhere to be found in here?
That's a tough one. I couldn't recommend using anything that is not designed for hydroponics, but I don't know how much it would cost you to ship it to you. I would go with dry, rather than liquid if deciding to have it shipped.
Quote:
- Could I use 1 nutrient recipe or do I need to create multiple? Since most vegetables I are about to grow are greens. Not much flower/blossom. Except maybe Cauliflower.
This really depends on witch crops you ultimately decide on, if they have the same pH requirements and the reservoir is large enough it's quite likely. But you may want to expand in the future also. If you are talking about just the recipe, and not if they all can run on the same reservoir, that depends on what it is and what it was designed for. You will likely be able to grow everything with the same recipe, but all of them perfect, no. That recipe has not been designed yet that I know of.
Quote:
Is it possible to control humidity when the sides of the structure are aphid nets? What is the best way to control it?
This is also a tough one, anything is possible provided you have the funds. Maybe not practicable, but possible. But if air easily passes through it, you wont be able to contain it. The netting will slow it down sum-what. But being in southeast Asia, I assume it's quite humid. Therefor I wouldn't expect you needing to add humidity. So air circulation would be your best bet, including trimming old leaves at the base of the plants for better circulation. Otherwise a dehumidifier may be needed.
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Old 05-10-2010, 05:21 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated

I have not much experience growing any of the crops but my brother in law has grown a variety of the common Asian vegetables in a hydro setup before. However it did not have any protection of the elements and/or bugs.

Location
They are 4 seperate areas with different dimensions yes. I am restricted to this for testing purposes.
All is tiled and pretty close to horizontal. If I can grow reliable in there it will be expanded to land that we have to lease. I have to check for price/location/etc. But any design you recommend should be scalable. The most likely starting dimension will be a 100 m2 area but some part will be lost to (cool)storage/parking.

The protected area has to be built but will be kept simple in the testing environment. I have to check on material and costs, they are outside of the $5000 budget.

Materials
Some materials I will have to import from Thailand as they are readily available there. For example the aphid nets and black plastic to use for deep pond systems. Other things like foam cubes to start seeds in, styrofoam boards, plastic buckets/rainwater storage tanks, wood, concrete, etc are available in here. Prices: I have to check. Just include what you would use at home and I check if it is available, at what cost and if I might can substitute it with something cheaper.

Production
When I grow for commercial use I plan to do round year production of the same crop. I have to research the market to see if it is profitable though but it takes time to gather this data. If however I choose to switching with seasons I would keep in mind to stack plants together that require similar cooling or lighting.

Nutrient/PH Control
I will check what both cost in dry form. Both can be imported from Thailand. However at a later stage it is more cost effective to make my own nutrient mix I think. Since there is no supplier here yet it also could give the opportunity to sell it. It has a steep learing curve though I have seen a member on this board who is doing it in Thailand.

Temp/Humidity
I will try to research more into the types of structures that are in use over here and how this affects humidity and temperature. On the following website (pls add www in front, the url did mess up my post) I found they are using Evaporative Cooling. Although some websites did suggest it would not work in the climate I live in. Any idea if it is a good investment? ackhydrofarm.com/eng_home.php
I will take a tour at this farm later on maybe.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:32 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
I have not much experience growing any of the crops but my brother in law has grown a variety of the common Asian vegetables in a hydro setup before. However it did not have any protection of the elements and/or bugs.
OK, this is a big issue, I wouldn't recommend growing any crop that you are not familiar with on a large scale. I can find good information on just about any crop, but nothing can substitute for first hand experience. I would suggest here to build a few small scale systems 2-3-4-5- plants each, If things go well expand, if not, find out why first. All designs are scalable, so that wouldn't be any problem, provided you can find usable materials.
Quote:
The protected area has to be built but will be kept simple in the testing environment.
For a testing area this might do, depending on what you have in mind for environmental controls (heat and cooling). Where I live I can build a greenhouse out of PVC tubing and tarps. That will work for the winter unless it gets too windy, but stragity needs to change for the summer here. But I'm not sure if the $5000 ($2500-$3000) budget is expandable if things work out. The system I have designed for my backyard is about 30 by 30 feet Including the greenhouse, for 650-700 strawberry plants, plus about 40-50 pepper plants (outside the greenhouse). This will run me about $3000, it includes screening for the greenhouse, but not heating and cooling.

I have made a list of the materials that I need to do the job, gotten prices for these materials. And added them up to get my figures. But my figures wont be the same as yours. As suggested before I would simply suggest building smaller systems and becoming familiar with the crops before going bigger.
Quote:
When I grow for commercial use I plan to do round year production of the same crop. I have to research the market to see if it is profitable though but it takes time to gather this data.
I know how to do this in my country, but nowhere else. So I cant help you with the projected profitability of crops in your area. And yes for me it was very time consuming, but well worth the effort.
Quote:
I will check what both cost in dry form. Both can be imported from Thailand. However at a later stage it is more cost effective to make my own nutrient mix I think. Since there is no supplier here yet it also could give the opportunity to sell it. It has a steep learing curve though I have seen a member on this board who is doing it in Thailand.
Sure it would be more cost effective to make your own nutrients (not sure about pH adjusters). Yes there is a member that claims to have the knowledge to make your own nutrients. I wont give any names, but I personally would second guess this info. It may be correct, but I need to consider the source. I have found nutrient recipes from creditable sources, as well as manufactures of the raw materials. I will be testing these in the future, but as I suggested for you on a small scale, then see how things go before feeding it to the entire system.
Quote:
Temp/Humidity
Sorry the website did not come up for me. But I can tell you evaporative coolers (or swamp coolers) add humidity to there environment. So if it's already humid, you will just be adding more humidity. They are popular in our town, but we are a very dry climate most of the year. Even so, in an enclosed area they just make it too humid.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:58 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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OK, I have had a little time. I think you are thinking of using two basic types of hydroponic systems. A floating system (water culture), an a dutch bucket (combination drip system, and water culture commonly referred to as a "DWC" system). Well I still recommend starting with just a few plants if you are not familiar with growing them (not to mention growing hydroponics), you will want to have success before you expand into a larger operation. But here are a few ideas on how to build the systems.

For the dutch buckets, I would use a bucket inside a bucket. Like a 5 gallon bucket for the base, and either a 5 gallon for the top, or a 3 gallon. The top bucket would have holes drilled into the bottom for the nutrient solution to drain down into the bottom bucket. The bottom bucket will have a through hole (or bulkhead fitting) that allows the overflow to drain down into the return line. This through hole would have a tube fitted into it on the inside of the bottom bucket, this is the height of the water level (or reserve) you want in each bucket. I attached a few pictures one that I did, I just was not using it as a dutch bucket, so I wasn't using a top bucket but it should give you an idea what I mean. Also if the top bucket wont fit snugly, you can get the lids for the 5 gallon bucket, then cut a hole in the lid to fit the smaller buckets.

The picture of the complete bucket system is a drip system, but with the addition of a top bucket (that fits inside the bottom one) it can easily be turned into a dutch bucket system. Although I would place them in rows, with each buckets return line flowing into one large PVC pipe, and the PVC pipe flowing back into the reservoir. That would be much easier than trying to flow each individual bucket back with flexible tubing.

For the pond technique, there are many ways to construct it, mostly depending on size. Large setups using concrete would probably be the most cost effective as long as it's sealed (like the lining for swimming pools, water sealant etc.), because minerals can leach out of the concrete and into the nutrient solution. But for a small scale setup like I would suggest starting with. you could use something like a small wading pool (like for little kids), these are only about 1-2 feet deep and around 8 feet wide. This can be placed into the ground to protect from high nutrient temps, but they wont be able to be placed deep enough for good Geothermal effects. Wrapping insulation around it may work as well, but it probably wont be enough for summer heat, so an alternate cooling system would probably be necessary. I have plans for such a design but cant post it here because it is in pdf. format and too large to post. I would need to e-mail it to you.

I am also attaching some pictures of another design. It's basically a upside down V shaped design, with a trough at the bottom that holds the nutrient solution, and removable side panels for the plants. The tubing inside is attached to the pump, and the tubing would have misters/emitters that spray the roots with nutrient solution. Though this wont be a good design in case of power outages, but it might give you some ideas. The images are not complete, I have some upgrades in mind that are not in the images. But any way you look at it, I would suggest building some small systems for a few plants (whatever plants you decide on), then when you have had success and feel comfortable growing them, that's when I would suggest expanding into large systems.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:31 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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Thanks for the pics and input! I will look around coming weekend what kind of things I can find that are suitable for a DWC setup. Maybe at first just some (clean) styrofoam containers they use in here to transport vegetables or fish and make a small bubble system out of it. It gives me enough time to look around for something bigger while in the mean testing out various vegetables and growing conditions. However I will need to check the nutrient temp buildup.

Do I need any special thermometer for it? I am not sure what the impact of the nutrient solution is on a "normal" thermometer.

About the bucket system: if I understand correct, in the lower bucket I place a piece of tube that will determain how much water will stay in the bottom acting as reservoir. However the top bucket will be above that level, so I assume I fill up the bottom bucket with hydroton pebbles so it reaches the top bucket? If not: please explain how the plant could wick up the solution.

How to determine the reservoir size? It seems to depend on the
Number of plants x
Bucket size x
Average uptake per day x
Ammount that keeps the pump from running dry
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:39 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Do I need any special thermometer for it? I am not sure what the impact of the nutrient solution is on a "normal" thermometer.
No special thermometers needed. I use a fish tank thermometer myself, I got it at a local store (WalMart) for under $2 US dollars. A glass one, not the kind that stick to the side of the tank, I don't think those are accurate enough (especially over time). It does have a suction cup on it to stick it to the glass, but it's a regular glass thermometer. I don't leave it in all the time, it only takes about 5 min to get a good reading. I only check it when I have a concern. I just tied a string on it so I can drop it in and retrieve it easily. P.S. I store it in a empty plastic spice container to protect it from breaking.
Quote:
About the bucket system: if I understand correct, in the lower bucket I place a piece of tube that will determain how much water will stay in the bottom acting as reservoir. However the top bucket will be above that level, so I assume I fill up the bottom bucket with hydroton pebbles so it reaches the top bucket? If not: please explain how the plant could wick up the solution.
Well there are really two ways to run it, either a flood and drain (ebb & flow) or a drip system. I am suggesting running it as a drip system, because it would be less complicated, and use a lot less nutrient solution than it would take to flood a flood and drain system. You are correct about the bottom bucket reserving nutrient solution at the level you decide. However running it as a drip system the pump feeds the growing medium from the top, making it's way down through the growing medium, and draining into the bottom bucket. The tube height in the bottom bucket is determined by the overflow tube. Once it overflows the tube it drains down into the PVC tubing that takes it back to the reservoir where (one pump) recycles it back. Each bucket will have it's own reserve, but all of the plants would be feed by one pump.

The size of the buckets, the placement of the bottom overflow tube are both key to the design. And are reliant on what materials you have to work with. Once the root system becomes large enough it will grow down into the bottom bucket where the reserve nutrient solution is. but if the top bucket is smaller than the top one, and there is enough space between both buckets, you can raise the overflow tube high enough so the reserve water level is soaking the bottom inch or two of the growing medium. This will wick up throughout the growing medium. It's all really about what you have to work with, and how you ultimately can design it. I can maybe do a quick image of what I mean tomorrow to give you a better idea. It is basically a DWC setup, but using much more growing medium to hold moisture. I don't see much difference between a dutch bucket system and a DWC system other than that. I believe a typical dutch bucket system is feed by a drip system, but like I said it can be run like a flood and drain also, just more complicated (fittings, running lines etc.).
Quote:
How to determine the reservoir size? It seems to depend on the
Number of plants x
Bucket size x
Average uptake per day x
Ammount that keeps the pump from running dry
You are right here, all factors you need to consider, but I might add that as the plants get bigger they will suck up more water daily. Also they will suck up more as it becomes hotter. I don't have any magic formula (or even know where to find one). But as a comparison I was using a 18 gallon reservoir for my broccoli plants (by the way that is the bucket system in the earlier pictures, reservoir is under the table), I started out using just 8 gallons. But as the plants got bigger they were drinking much more water daily, I was replacing between 2-4 gallons a day. Many times it got to low and the pump was going dry, so I filled it to the full 18 gallons.

This gave me a buffer so I wasn't checking water level, and pH etc. twice a day. But as the water level fluctuates, so does the concentration of the nutrients in it (PPM/TDS), in the long run the bigger the reservoir the better. But also you don't want to waist nutrients either. This is part of the learning curve, and why I suggest starting small first so you can experience these things first hand.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:44 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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I had time to make a few images of what I had in mind for the dutch bucket system. They are not done to scale, but I think they give you a better idea what I am/was thinking. Also the designs are drawn around using 5 gallon buckets for the large bucket, and 3 or 4 gallon buckets for the small bucket (that holds the plants). But the basic idea is what's important because I am not sure what you have available. You can use almost anything you can get your hands on. I can get many different size storage containers at the local Walmart fairly cheaply. You may even find local restaurants that are throwing away containers that would work for you.

Also to make it easy to draw, I made the overflow tube inside the large bucket straight, but you can use a flexible line if space is an issue. The key is the top of the overflow is above the bottom of the bucket that holds the plants. This way the growing medium will be able to wick up the water from the reserve in the bottom bucket, when/if power goes out. Problem is (as with the dutch bucket design) if the water level in the bottom bucket is too high, it can water log the root system (power or not). Getting the best fit for this level is the key to it working well. So you will need to do some trial and error with this height, as well as the type of growing medium you are using, and even time of year.
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Old 05-12-2010, 03:39 AM
sh4dowman sh4dowman is offline
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Thanks for the great drawings! (what program did you use?)

This confirms my mental image of the system you described. I think it can be developed cost effective. Yeah I can imagine it needs some trial and error testing to see what will be the best water level to contain (based on the type of plant and weather conditions). That is why I intend to keep a logbook so I can always review things at a later time.

For the drip line: I have to see if I can find drip emmiters in here. Another option would be to use T connectors at the main line so each pot can have a punctured piece of tube that drips the water in it.

How about the pump? It seems I first have to design my system; then work out what ammount of water will be in it; and based on that (+ the distance to the pump) how much PSI it need.
I did follow this link: How to select a hydroponic pump

Can the strength be adjusted on the pump or do I need to make a valve between my dripline and the pump to control it that way? Not sure if that could have a bad effect on the pump.
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Old 05-12-2010, 05:05 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Thanks for the great drawings! (what program did you use?)
I use Google Sketchup, they have paid versions but I use the free version at the bottom of the link. It takes time to learn how to use it. But from what I understand it works much like the CAD (drafting program, maybe even better). The CAD programs costs thousands of dollars. I have not used the CAD program so I cant compare. But Google also has videos that help give directions/instructions on how to use it best. I am no expert with using it, but I like it a lot. I needed a way to make the imiges for the pdf. files, and free designs for the build your own system plans for my website, in order to make them look somewhat uniformed. Google Sketchup fit the bill in my price range, FREE.

It is a 3D image program that you can rotate the images, then you need to export them from the program as a jpg, in order to use them like I have posted them. Once they are exported they are 2D images and not rotatable. But I save have all the originals (in stages along the way) in original form, so I don't need to start from scratch with every image. Although, I did start from scratch when creating the ones I posted in this thread, because I hadn't created any thing with that design yet. But it's not time wasted because I have no doubt that they will come in handy later.

Quote:
For the drip line: I have to see if I can find drip emmiters in here. Another option would be to use T connectors at the main line so each pot can have a punctured piece of tube that drips the water in it.
To be honest, I think drip emitters are overrated. I don't know what's available to you, but emitters will clog. I use regular irrigation tubing (like the kind that they use for soil gardening). They sell (here) pre drilled holes, and solid tubing in all sizes. I just fit it all together the way I need it to fit, then take a paper clip (heat it red hot) and poke the holes where I need them. If they clog over time I will just poke more holes, but the tubing is much cheaper (to me) than replacing emitters.
Quote:
How about the pump? It seems I first have to design my system; then work out what ammount of water will be in it; and based on that (+ the distance to the pump) how much PSI it need.
I don't know how many plants you plan, or how many. But the pump will need to be sufficient. Again I don't know what's available to you, but none of the pumps that I use are rated in PSI (pounds per square inch), but gallons per hour (GPH). Also the most important rating to me is the "head height," this is how many gallons the pump can pump at a particular height above the pump. This can drop dramatically depending on the pump. I attached a picture of my favorite pump so far, the head height is 8.7 feet. I actually needed to split the line in the reservoir because it pumped too much and the system would overflow (at 2 feet), one line went to the system, the other directly back into the resevar. But I got it for $45, and it pumps 3-4 times the volume that the pumps I got at the hydroponics store for $30 do. I got it at the local hardware store in the nursery department, where the sell fountain, and pond pumps. Just make sure it either has a filter built in or you create one, it needs a filter.
Quote:
Can the strength be adjusted on the pump or do I need to make a valve between my dripline and the pump to control it that way? Not sure if that could have a bad effect on the pump.
Adjusting it would depend on the pump, the one i showed you has an adjustment, but the flow still needed to be adjusted down, for the application I was using it for. But I would rather need to do that than need to buy a new one if I needed a more powerful one. And yes, you you can place inline control valves to help direct the flow, especial if they are at different levels (heights). But I have not come across (or herd of) any problems of back pressure damaging the pump. Once you take one apart to clean it I'm sure you will understand why that is.

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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-12-2010 at 06:57 AM.
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