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The eternal light question


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  #21  
Old 11-03-2010, 10:40 AM
one800fish one800fish is offline
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I'm using 6ea 100watt output cfl's in the 6500k spectrum.
6 x 100 = 600watts of light.
These bulbs use 23 watts ea.
23x6= 138 watts.
138watts ./. 120 volts= 1.15 amps.

Same for flowering except bulbs are 2700k.

my utility bill for October was $58.60.

As far as penetration, the blubs are in clamp on shop light fixtures and I can move them where needed and my plants are doing great.

This may not work for everybody but for a $58.60 utility bill, it works for me.

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  #22  
Old 11-03-2010, 12:02 PM
NorEastFla NorEastFla is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by one800fish View Post
I'm using 6ea 100watt output cfl's in the 6500k spectrum.
6 x 100 = 600watts of light.
These bulbs use 23 watts ea.
23x6= 138 watts.
138watts ./. 120 volts= 1.15 amps.
Just a note about your wattage. The "equivalent" wattage is a "Brightness" perceived by the human eye, and has nothing at all to do with plant usable lumens.

What you have as far as your plants are concerned is 138 watts of total light.

Can you post pics of your plants growing under this amount of light? I'd love to see them.
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  #23  
Old 11-03-2010, 02:12 PM
NorEastFla NorEastFla is offline
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To expand a little on my last post, a 23 watt CFL has 1,380 total lumens output with a 60 lumens per/watt efficiency.

They also have self-contained ballasts that can, if used in an enclose area, result in quite a heat buildup that could heat the reservoir temperature and/or grow chamber temperatures.

Light-bulb efficiency is measured in terms of lumens per watt—the amount of light produced for each watt of electricity consumed. More lumens per watt means more light for your money.

Incandescent: 10-17 lumens per/watt

Halogen: 10-22 lumens per/watt

White LED: 20-60 lumens per/watt

Mercury Vapor: 25-60 lumens per/watt

Linear Fluorescent: 30-110 lumens per/watt

Compact Fluorescent (CFL): 40-70 lumens per/watt

High Pressure Sodium (HPS): 50-140 lumens per/watt

Metal Halide (MH): 70-115 lumens per/watt

***
Light on a surface (such as a plant canopy) is referred to as illuminance, which is typically represented by footcandles (lumens per square foot, equal to 10.76 lux) or lux (lumens per square meter, equal to 0.092903 footcandles).

Most leafy plants like to have a minimum of 5 thousand lumens per/sq ft of plant canopy. You can get by on 3 thousand per/sq ft, but 5K will make them grow much better and contain much more health giving nutrients and vitamins for your body.

You discover the "Lumens per/sq ft" by adding up the total lumens of your lights and dividing that by the number of square feet of plant canopy you have.

With 6ea, 23 watt CFLs, you have 8,280 total lumens. At the lowest minimum lumens of 3K per/sq ft, that gives you enough light for 2.76 square feet of plant canopy if you expect good growth, short internodal length and average fruiting.

2.7 square feet is the same as an area of 397.44 square inches, or an area about 20 inches by 20 inches.

As you can see, that's not much area. You'll find that HPS is the best all-around lighting for plants indoors. Great spectrum, remote ballasts and a very good lumens per/watt output.

A 150 watt HPS will have about 16,000 total lumens. At 3K per/sq ft, that's enough lumens for an area of 5.33 sq ft or an area of 768 square inches or an area of 28 inches by 28 inches.

An area covered with multiple 150 watt HPS will be much better than an area covered by one larger bulb. The lights can be closer to the plant canopy and each plant receives a much better light and an efficiency of 106.66 lumens per/watt as opposed to the 60 lumens per/watt the 23 watt CFLs will give you. It's a much better bang for your buck.
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:11 PM
halfway halfway is offline
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Awesome post NorEast. I pulled that onto a word doc and saved it for reference.

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  #25  
Old 11-04-2010, 06:38 PM
one800fish one800fish is offline
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Good info. The part about using multiple 150w HPS bulbs-vs-a larger blub really makes sense.
Thanks for the great advice.
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  #26  
Old 11-20-2010, 02:02 PM
willard3 willard3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
No,
The question is about calculating electricity cost. Just because it's referring to lighting makes no difference. You calculate energy consumption using the same formula whether it's a light, refrigerator, radio, TV, computer, electric fan, pond pump etc. That is not an opinion, they teach Ohm's Law (current (amps), volts and Resistance are the 3 parts of electricity) in school, although it has been a lot of years sense I was in school. Watts is a measurement of the rate of energy conversion, and if I remember correctly is also a measurement of the heat generated by that conversion. No where is lumens (a measure of the power of light perceived by the human eye) mentioned as any measurement (or part of) of electricity.

Once the amount of energy used is determined, then it can be multiplied by the price per Kilowatt that the electric company charges (easily found on your electric bill).

Hence my previous post, ie,

If you divide lumens by watts, how would you come out with kilowatts?
Watts/1000 = kilowatts
(Lamp watts/1000) X hours of operation = kilowatt hours
KWH X cost/kwh = cost

You just don't understand energy very well.
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  #27  
Old 11-20-2010, 03:54 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willard3 View Post
Hence my previous post, ie,

If you divide lumens by watts, how would you come out with kilowatts?
Watts/1000 = kilowatts (not "lumens", unless you are spelling lumens "Watts")
(Lamp watts/1000) X hours of operation = kilowatt hours (no lumens mentioned)
KWH X cost/kwh = cost (again no lumens mentioned)

You just don't understand energy very well.
I understand dividing watts by 1000 to get kilowatts (a kilowatt being one 1000'th of a watt), then multiplying by hours of operation. But nowhere is LUMENS a part of that calculation. Again, energy comes in many forms, and is not the same thing as electricity. Even the wind has energy, or a tornado, even a waterfall has energy, even a fart has energy in the form of methane gas. There are even some farms that are converting the energy trapped in cow farts, into usable energy to power generators. You don't seem to understand the difference between energy and electricity, or you wouldn't keep referring to one when meaning another.

Once again
The form of energy of lumens is "A measure of the power of light PERCEIVED by the human eye"

I'm not sure why it's so important to you that I just believe that a "lamps lumen output" has anything at all to do with calculating its electrical cost. But you also don't seem to understand that the electrical costs of other devices "OTHER THAN LAMPS" need to be calculated also, in order for the electric company to be able to charge for the electricity they use. Fact is lights/lamps are not special, you don't have two electric meters on your house, one for lamps and another for everything else. You can keep trying if it's so important to you (and I won't say never), but good luck convincing me.
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  #28  
Old 11-21-2010, 06:55 AM
Luches Luches is offline
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One Kilowatt is not a 1000th of a watt but 1Kw=1000 watt. 1 Kw is also what you call 1 unit in the US and at most other parts of the world.

If knowing how much watt a bulb consumes (in Kw/h) and approximately how much lumens it produces, you can in fact calculate both: 1. consumption per hour, day, month etc. and 2. if knowing the surface you need to cover, how many watt per lumens per square ft a specific setup consumes and costs. Yes you can, but you need to know how.

Example with Metal Halide = 70-115 lumens per/watt and assuming that 5000 lumens per/sq ft are appropriate and/or sufficient for the purpose.

Let's assume that one 150 watt Metal Halide bulb would produce (for simplicity as an average from 70-115) 100 lumens per watt and thus producing 15000 lumens. Hence be sufficient for a surface of 3 sq ft. And to cover a surface of 21 sq', you'd need 7 bulbs of 150 Watt, which corresponds to 1050 watt and brings the total consumption of these 7 bulbs close enough to 1 Kw/h.

Making things as even as we can for the sake of simplicity while still keeping the maths accurate enough for the purpose, we can safely say that with 7 MH bulbs, we cover 20 sq ft, produce close to 100.000 lumens and are consuming 1 Kw/h.

Now we can easily and actually put watt in direct relation with lumens or square foot and vis versa and make our own equation for future projections and estimates.

Of course that other premisses and/or choices (of bulbs and lumens per sq ft needed) would also need a different "mathematical spadework", - and most probably not end up in such even numbers! But any 5th grader should be able to take over from here and transfer the described method to another model... without a doubt and without arguing, - right?
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  #29  
Old 11-21-2010, 07:22 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Luches
Back again I see. What's the matter, you've been logging in about every other day for months and months. Do you miss me?

Yes, I did have that backwards (1000 watts= 1 kilowatt), but it hardly changes the fact that lumens are not part of the equation to calculate the cost to run a any electrical device (even if it is a light). The way I see it, with your equation your using lumens to determine how many light's are needed to cover a given area. That would be the right use for lumens for an equation. But that was not what the question was about, nor was it the point of any disagreement.

Quote:
Does any one out there have any data on the costs (approx) it tkes to run each type of grow light.

Example. How much does it cost (again approx.) to run the different strengths of MH, compared to hps, compared to CF, and so on? (notice: nothing to do with lumens or the area to be covered)
The question had nothing to do with how many lights were needed to cover a given area. It was about comparing "the cost it takes to run each type of grow light" in hopes of buying ones that would save them money to run over time, no mater what the area that needs to be covered is. The question asks about different strengths, but needs to be compared to equal strength (150, 400, 600 watts etc., or 1000 lumens to 1000 lumens etc.). The question does not ask anything about lumen output and/or comparing them, that's a different question altogether.

Your first post in months and true to form you still could not refrain from insults with your crack "But any 5th grader should be able to take over from here and transfer the described method to another mode." That is the exact reason that I have absolutely no respect whatsoever for you at all.

And what's this crack about "without a doubt and without arguing, - right?," That's your ego, and way of saying everyone must just believe you without question, simply because you say so. As if you were some sort of authority over the rest of the world, and you know very well I will not be told what to do by you. I don't recognize your self appointed badge, so if you want to continue with your digs on this forum I will be happy to oblige.
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  #30  
Old 11-21-2010, 11:14 PM
Luches Luches is offline
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Things are often a bit complex, but become very simple as soon as you make sense of them and let them work for you. One only needs to be pragmatical and find a sound working solution within the laws of physics. Either for one self or even better, one that works for everyone. "Making one's points" always ends up in arguing and becomes quite a luxury and a loss of time for others.

I don't know what it is about for others and I don't care about the size or the lumens output of their Egos. I am merely interested in understanding useful things and putting them to practice accordingly, respectively helping others to do so.
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  #31  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:00 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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luches
You have posted 168 previous posts in the past before your recent postings, and I have not forgotten, and nor will I forget your total LACK of RESPECT you've shown towards others as well as me in most of them. "Respectively" trying to help others is simply the last thing you wind up doing. I have no reason to believe that you have turned over a new leaf, so you are mistaken you think there is a new beginning. It would take 168 consecutive new posts, all practicing respect towards others before I would even consider thinking that you may have turned over a new leaf. Good luck with that... Even your first post back, you have show your lack of respect towards others.
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  #32  
Old 11-22-2010, 02:47 AM
Luches Luches is offline
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Default Just passing through

I have posted a simple mathematical method that allows to put lumens and watt in relation in order to be able to calculate running consumption and even cost per lumens and sq ft. This method only works if- and after choosing a type of light source, of course. If it is use- and helpful for anyone - so much the better. If not, simply ignore it and go on figuring out your own.

Your obvious resentfulness and cravings for revenge on the other hand are none of my concern, GPS - as that's indeed your own funeral!

Don't you worry anyway, I am just passing through
Cheesing it, you bet!
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  #33  
Old 11-22-2010, 03:36 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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I'm not concerned with revenge.
If that's what you want to call it when you mistreat and bully people, then wonder why they wont give you any respect (as I have no doubt your huge EGO sees it), call it revenge then if you want. Either way, you wont get any respect from me. Simply because you don't treat other people with any, so therefore you don't deserve any. Cry me a river, and boohoo to you.


P.S. I'm perfectly OK with my own funeral thanks, don't spend too much time worrying about me in that department. But thanks for your concern anyway.
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  #34  
Old 11-23-2010, 05:50 AM
Luches Luches is offline
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If you have the facts, pound on the facts. If you have the knowledge, pound on the knowledge. If you have the experience, pound on the experience. If you don't have either, you can always pound on the table and/or on the behavior of others.
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  #35  
Old 11-23-2010, 07:56 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luches View Post
If you have the facts, pound on the facts. If you have the knowledge, pound on the knowledge. If you have the experience, pound on the experience. If you don't have either, you can always pound on the table and/or on the behavior of others.
Just your huge EGO speaking again. What makes you think you are so special that you are only person on the planet to get facts (opinions) from, even if your opinion (what you call facts) were worth a dam. You must have extra wide doors to get that FAT HEAD inside the house. Even if what you call your facts were worth money, I would just flush it down the toilet. I always consider the source of any facts, and you are a simply a worthless source. You seem to think that you have some special knowledge that gives you a license to treat people like crap. I'll get my knowledge from a descent human being, I simply don't put up your type of attitude. Not to mention NOT taking any responsibility for your treatment toward others. That shows bad character on top of a huge ego, and people with bad character often have bad ethics too (they go hand and hand).

Your EGO must be taking a beating. I just can't figure out why you try so hard to bully me into giving you respect, you must want it very bad. But you lost any chance of my respect a long, long, long time ago You've known this, yet you still continue to cry about the consequences of your actions. Grow up already, and take it like a man. Your like a old girlfriend that's so needy they just cant let go and move on. It must hurt you deeply to know that I don't need you. They get themselves into such a depression that they don't feel life is worth living anymore when there's plenty of other fish in the sea. But I guess it's like that old saying, it's what you cant have you want the most. I think it is so sweet that you want to save me from pounding my head on the table, but your still worthless.
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  #36  
Old 11-23-2010, 08:00 AM
halfway halfway is offline
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You guys killed this thread.

Why not use the private messaging?

Jeesh.
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  #37  
Old 11-23-2010, 08:14 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Privet messaging does no good with luches he just doesn't care about anyone else, and if you ignore it he just gets worse. He craves attention just like a little kid. If you ignore his yelling, he just gets louder. And there's never any reasoning with him either.
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  #38  
Old 11-26-2010, 11:05 AM
willard3 willard3 is offline
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The thing to which I take exception is to GPS Frontier claiming any knowledge of physics, electricity or lighting. He/she dosen't understand it and it would be a help if he/she admitted it at least to him/herself.

GPS's posts are either a clear demonstration of this lack of knowledge or a bad joke. Reading and learning something about lighting/electricity would help in these discussions.
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  #39  
Old 11-26-2010, 08:29 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willard3 View Post
The thing to which I take exception is to GPS Frontier claiming any knowledge of physics, electricity or lighting. He/she dosen't understand it and it would be a help if he/she admitted it at least to him/herself.

GPS's posts are either a clear demonstration of this lack of knowledge or a bad joke. Reading and learning something about lighting/electricity would help in these discussions.
You can take exception with all you want, that's your prerogative. And remember I can do the same. But I can tell you that I'm very comfortable with my knowledge (not that I know everything), and I simply wont be bullied into believing something just because someone that I don't knows demands it. Even in 7'th and 8'th grade, my science teacher (same teacher both years) would have the entire room set up as a lab at least once a week. Where we had to disassemble things like lamps, motors etc. at different station's around the room, explain all the parts and their function, then put it all back together so it works properly. My high high school auto shop teacher that I had for 5 semesters did exactly the same thing (including alternators and starters)' except we each had one at our own desk that we had to do by ourselves.

I also took electronics in High school for two semesters, and along with the textbook learning we had to build things like small radios from kits, making all the solder connections in the right places ourselves. Beyond school, I have also replaced all the electrical outlets (including all GFI outlets) in my moms old house. That includes behind the refrigerator and under counters like for the disposal. I also updated all the electrical switches in that house to the flat switches. There wasn't a outlet or switch that didn't get replaced, including all outlets and switches outside and in the garage.

I have also replaced the florescent lighting (including ballasts) in the kitchen, striped the wood molding and refinished it to give it a updated look. I have also added new security lighting in both the front and back of the house, and added an outdoor light fixture in the atrium, as well as installed the new electrical boxes for all the new light switches. That included cutting into the drywall and mounting them to the studs. Not to mention all the miscellaneous things like replacing existing light fixtures, door bells, thermostats etc.. Through all of that only once did I ever have a problem. There were two outlets where the voltage output was low (80-90 volts), and even after replacing them again it was still low. So we called a electrician in and he not only told me that I did a great job saving my mom thousands of dollars, but he also said the problem had nothing to do with my work. It was due to a ground short within the wall, and I would probably never have found it.


So again I don't clam to know everything, but I'm far from ignorant about electricity also, and I'm very comfortable with what I do know. Even if you don't like it. So when you say
Quote:
find the # of lumens for a lamp and divide by the number of watts....
Then when I give an example based on exactly what you stated "you have a florescent light that puts out 10,000 lumens at 100 watts. 10,000 divided by 100= 100. Is that 100 kilowatts?" this is your reply
Quote:
Watts/1000 = kilowatts
(Lamp watts/1000) X hours of operation = kilowatt hours
KWH X cost/kwh = cost
The problem here is you forgot to answer the question. You mention lamp watts, watts, kilowatts, but never mention lumens. The whole basis of your theory and the point of my question (in response to "find the # of lumens for a lamp and divide by the number of watts....") You simply started with watts and convert watts into kilowatts. So where's the lumen's you so adamantly referred to? You don't even seem to know. I gave you plenty of opportunity to explain, you just can't. Yet, you expect me to just believe you because you say so, even when you can't seem to figure it out yourself. Even if I wanted to, you have not supplied an accurate equation (showing your work) to calculate it with that would help anyone. You also have not supplied any information other than just your say so on your flawed theory. Talk about a joke, that's a good one.

Then to top that off you get offended when I choose not to believe in that theory. Then you resort to attacking my intelligence because I don't believe in your "divide lumens by watts" theory, rather than simply supplying links to sources that would support your theory. Again, that's what a real joke looks like.
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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 11-26-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-26-2010, 10:25 PM
willard3 willard3 is offline
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You, sir, are a poseur and your ignorance is not a virtue.


Last edited by willard3; 11-26-2010 at 10:28 PM.
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