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Organic Hydroponic Endeavour


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Old 01-24-2013, 11:56 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Just wanted to share my plans for my compost tea nutrient

This in short my attempt to produce my own Hydroponic nutrients using compost tea. I understand that this will be trial and error, but I am determined and have a well though up game plan/system that I hope will work. I also would like to thank GPS Frontier for his post on his green house schedule, This is a great Idea and from that, I have come up with a plan to help insure that I have as little problems as possible.
Now I am sure that some of you are wondering, how do you plan to make a compost tea that will be good for both vegative growth and floral bloom. Well I thought about this and the best answer is I'm not!! I am planning to brew both a vegative compost tea and then a compost tea that will be used for the floral Bloom..... I know what you are thinking...Oh yeah like thats going to work.....Well This is where the trial and error is going to take place. I also have come up with a 3 part plan to help cut down on pathogens like E.coli, S.enteriditis, and the Norwalk virus, that are commonly present when growing vegetables.
The first part of my system is one of the key parts and its the compost tea brewer. There are several different configurations that can be use when brewing compost tea, 5 gal buckets are most common in small scale gardening and then there are large commercial models that are avaliable that range to 1000s of gallons. I will be making my own airlift compost tea brewer, but before we talk about that, I want t talk about biota build up ( you know that brown slimy stuff we sometimes find in our systems) Well this stuff is evermore present in organic hydroponics than synthetic hydroponics. Excess biota will clog everything!! Well this is one of the reasons why we flush and clean our systems not to mention it helps to get rid of the bad things that may be lurking in our systems, and it promotes a healthy enviroment for our veggies to grow, which is essential in hydro gardens.

Compost Tea is generally defined as the liquid extract of compost, the concept is simple but the process of brewing compost tea is somewhat scientific. First you need a brewer then some de-chlorinated water, compost, and a few other additives. well we all know how to get the chlorine out of water, but how do you get the pathogens out of the compost? Its simple it has to be heated, to 135F to 150F for 10 to 15 days this is called thermophilic composting will kill any pathogens that the compost may have? No, the heat in the compost pile is cause by microbial metabolisim and kills the pathogens in the process. When hot composting there is a big loss in nitrogen content. Dont worry I am going to add nitrogen to my tea.

Vegative growth:

2 cups of active compost
1 cup of worm castings
1 tsp bone meal ( 6-9-0)
1 tsp humic acid
1 fl. oz fish emmulsion ( 5-1-1 )
1 tsp cal/mag
2 fl. oz. unsulfured molasses
---------------------------------------
Floral Growth
---------------------------------------
weeks 1-2 Flush system with h2o2 or liquid lime for full 24 hrs

2 cups of active compost
1 cup of worm castings
2 tsp kelp meal (0-0-15)
2 tsp bone meal (6-9-0)
2 tsp humic acid
2 fl. oz fish emmulsion (5-1-1)
1 tsp cal/mag
2 fl. oz. unsulfured molasses
----------------------------------------
weeks 3-4 flush system with h2o2 or liquid lime for full 24 hrs

2 cups of active compost
1 cup of worm castings
2-3 tsp kelp meal (0-0-15)
2-3 tsp bone meal (6-9-0)
2-3 tsp humic acid
2-3 fl. oz fish emmulsion (0-10-10)
1-2 tsp cal/mag
2 fl. oz. unsulfured molasses
----------------------------------------
weeks 5-6 flush system with h202 or liquid lime for full 24 hrs

2 cups of active compost
1 cup of worm castings
2-3 tsp kelp meal (0-0-15)
2-3 tsp bone meal (6-9-0)
2-3 tsp humic acid
2-3 tsp. seabird gauanno or bat guanno (0-10-10)
1-2 tsp cal/mag
2 fl. oz. unsulfured molasses

----------------------------------------
weeks 7-8 flush system with h2o2 or liquid lime for full 24 hrs

2 cups of active compost
1 cup of worm castings
2-3 tsp kelp meal (0-0-15)
2-3 tsp bone meal (6-9-0)
2-3 tsp humic acid
2-3 tsp. seabird gauanno or bat guanno (0-10-10)
1-2 tsp cal/mag as needed
2 fl. oz. unsulfured molasses
----------------------------------------
weeks 9-10
Just flush with water

Links to DIY Compost Tea brewers:

http://dchall.home.texas.net/organic...DFs/brewer.pdf

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/lan...erplans_2_.pdf

http://soilsoup.com/Plans-for-SoilSo...n%20Brewer.pdf


I plan to make a venturi airlift compost brewer, and the tea will come straight from the reservoir to the drip heads, the buckets will empty into a storage tote reservoir then pumped through a filter/skimmer and then back into the venturi. Ok, why am I going to filter the compost tea? well for 3 reasons the first is to help remove the increasing population of bacteria, fungi and nemitodes. Secondly I plan to keep those microbes and add them to my compost pile so they will continue to breed. Most microbes dont live long so the idea is to keep them multiplying this way I can insure to have the same (good) microbes in every batch of tea. Number three some of the filtered compost will be used as a foliar spray so I really wont need a bunch of microbes on the foliage.
Dont worry i dont plan to leave out the fungi!!! I plan to culture it. Sure how do you plan to do that? Well it actually not that hard, you really dont need a lab with expensive equipment. All that is need is a glass jar some birdseed or some type of grain, karo syrup and a pressure cooker and some agar for isolating the strains of fungi then introduce them to a liquid culture which will last for about a year. But how are you going to tell what strains you have? I have a buddy thats a mycologist.

All comments and ideas are welcome.
Also this plan is to be happening in the near future and none of the steps have be started other than the write up and research.

Links to articles on compost tea in hydroponics:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Compost-Te...ing&id=4856404

http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/blo...roponic-system

http://arboretum.arizona.edu/sites/a...20Research.pdf

http://www.wisconsin.edu/oslp/swrp/R...post%20tea.pdf

http://midwestbiosystems.com/educati...ing-system-acs

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-5.pdf

http://ghex.colostate.edu/pdf_files/beth_succop.pdf

Learn More about what means to grow Organically and be a certified Organic grower:

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/...av=AGRICULTURE

http://www.gardenguides.com/89747-ce...c-growing.html

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/ge...nicArticle.pdf

Organic foods, are the worth all the hype? That depends if your are conscientious about the enviroment and what you what you put in your body.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/organic-food/NU00255


Last edited by CAPT38; 01-26-2013 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:31 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
I also have come up with a 3 part plan to help ensure that pathogens like E.coli, S.enteriditis, and the Norwalk virus, that is commonly present when growing vegetables.
I'm not sure what this statement means for sure, but I'm guessing you feel you have a way to eliminate common viruses that are generally a result from the methods used to extract minerals from animal waste?

Quote:
but before we talk about that, I want t talk about biota build up ( you know that brown slimy stuff we sometimes find in our systems)
I believe you are clearly misunderstanding the definition of "biota" by your statements. First of all you are stating that any living organism is defined as "biota," and by default that means that any brown, green, yellow, red, slime/organism etc. is "biota," and thus is beneficial. When that clearly is not the case.

The definition of biota is:

biota /bi·o·ta/ (bi-ō´tah) all the living organisms of a particular area; the combined flora and fauna of a region.

This does not specify color, nor does it specify whether it is a beneficial organism, or a pathogenic organism. The term "biota" only states that there is a unknown type of living organism in a given area (ecosystem). So calling anything living in an area is technically "biota," that still doesn't define weather it's a good organism or a bad one that is living in that area. So even though calling the brown slime is technically correct by calling it biota, it's completely wrong to assume it is a beneficial organism just because it's living. And that's is where your confusion of the definition begins. Brown slimy stuff could just as easily be a buildup of pathogens, but still fall under the definition of living organisms (biota) in a given area (ecosystem), but not be beneficial to the plants at all.

Quote:
Well this stuff is evermore present in organic hydroponics than synthetic hydroponics.
Well by definition biota (any living organism) will defiantly be more present in organic growing vs using synthetic fertilizers. The simple fact is that plants cant absorb nutrients unless they are broken down into the RAW CHEMICAL ELEMENT first. And organic growing relays on microorganisms (living organisms/ and not defined as good or bad) to break down the organic mater into the raw chemical elements the plants can absorb. So therefore if the organic mater is going to be useable to the plants, living organisms need to be there to break it down. With synthetic nutrients, there is no need to break it down, because it is already broken down. Therefore there is no need for the living organisms to do the job.

Quote:
Excess biota will clog everything!! Well this is one of the reasons why we flush and clean our systems not to mention it helps to get rid of the bad things that may be lurking in our systems,
But this is a contradiction. Every other time you use the term "biota" it is a beneficial organism. Why is it suddenly a bad thing if there are more living organisms than you plan on? What if there is less than 100,000 in each gallon of water it is considers beneficial, but if the numbers reach more than that their suddenly considered a bad thing? No, that's not how it works.

Quote:
Its simple it has to be heated, to 135F to 150F for 10 to 15 days this is called thermophilic composting will kill any pathogens that the compost may have?
Yes heat will kill the pathogens, but at the same time it ill kill the beneficial organisms as well. This leaves the compost sterile, and subject to easy inoculation of any organisms (beneficial or pathogenic) that are introduced later (through any typical means like air borne or water born). It's only sterile as long as it's above temperature.

P.S.
One of the key features of compost tea is the living microbes. Do you have a plan to keep them alive in the compost tea until you use the compost tea? Or will they die within days while the compost tea is in storage before you get a chance to use it? That's the single biggest reason I haven't ventured into making compost tea, I haven't learned how to store the unused portions effectively yet.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:46 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
I'm not sure what this statement means for sure, but I'm guessing you feel you have a way to eliminate common viruses that are generally a result from the methods used to extract minerals from animal waste?
Thanks for pointing that out, I have corrected the sentence.


I believe you are clearly misunderstanding the definition of "biota" by your statements. First of all you are stating that any living organism is defined as "biota," and by default that means that any brown, green, yellow, red, slime/organism etc. is "biota," and thus is beneficial. When that clearly is not the case.

No, thats is not the case beacause , I do really understand the definition of Biota there is a product called Biota max Biota Max™ Soil Probiotic, beneficial bacteria and fungi biota [bahy-oh-tuh] - noun - the complete collection of organisms in a soil, region, or period of time

The definition of biota is:[/U]
biota /bi·o·ta/ (bi-ō´tah) all the living organisms of a particular area; the combined flora and fauna of a region.<<<< (soil or peroid of time)needs to be included.

Your nutrient reservoir is a specific place!! and your feeding cycle is a peroid of time...... I can see how it can be confusing.

This does not specify color, nor does it specify whether it is a beneficial organism, or a pathogenic organism. The term "biota" only states that there is a unknown type of living organism in a given area (ecosystem). So calling anything living in an area is technically "biota," that still doesn't define weather it's a good organism or a bad one that is living in that area. So even though calling the brown slime is technically correct by calling it biota, it's completely wrong to assume it is a beneficial organism just because it's living. And that's is where your confusion of the definition begins. Brown slimy stuff could just as easily be a buildup of pathogens, but still fall under the definition of living organisms (biota) in a given area (ecosystem), but not be beneficial to the plants at all.

Plant species alter biota in ways that lead to either positive or negative plant - biota feedback effects. In other words...... plants affect organisms in their rhizospheres, and the rhizosphere biota in turn affects the plants. The direction of the feedback depends on the relative negative effects of accumulating borne pathogens, herbivores and parasites vs the relative positive effects of accumulating mycorrhizal fungi, nitrogen fixing bacteria, and other beneficial soil organisms and the indirect effect of these plant -biota interactions on plant–plant interactions.

Well by definition biota (any living organism) will defiantly be more present in organic growing vs using synthetic fertilizers. The simple fact is that plants cant absorb nutrients unless they are broken down into the RAW CHEMICAL ELEMENT first. And organic growing relays on microorganisms (living organisms/ and not defined as good or bad) to break down the organic mater into the raw chemical elements the plants can absorb. So therefore if the organic mater is going to be useable to the plants, living organisms need to be there to break it down. With synthetic nutrients, there is no need to break it down, because it is already broken down. Therefore there is no need for the living organisms to do the job.

Biota is not just any living orginisim...... but you are correct on the rest of the statment.

But this is a contradiction. Every other time you use the term "biota" it is a beneficial organism. Why is it suddenly a bad thing if there are more living organisms than you plan on? What if there is less than 100,000 in each gallon of water it is considers beneficial, but if the numbers reach more than that their suddenly considered a bad thing? No, that's not how it works.

Because to much biota will smother your plant by consuming all the O2 in the water and when that happens all you benifical orginisims ( biota) will die then thats when the pathogens will destroy your plants

Yes heat will kill the pathogens, but at the same time it ill kill the beneficial organisms as well. This leaves the compost sterile, and subject to easy inoculation of any organisms (beneficial or pathogenic) that are introduced later (through any typical means like air borne or water born). It's only sterile as long as it's above temperature.

Which is the reason I am making a bio filter so i can catch all the Biota and return it to the compost where it will multiply and i will have the same batch of micro organisims ( biota ) in every batch of nutreint rich compost tea.

P.S.
One of the key features of compost tea is the living microbes. Do you have a plan to keep them alive in the compost tea until you use the compost tea? Or will they die within days while the compost tea is in storage before you get a chance to use it? That's the single biggest reason I haven't ventured into making compost tea, I haven't learned how to store the unused portions effectively yet.
Micro organisims dont have a very long life cycle but they do myltiply very rapidly so it idea is to keep them multiplying, in the compost.
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Old 01-26-2013, 09:49 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Not sure how to use the quote option.... sorry you have to read the whole thing.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:00 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Not sure how to use the quote option.... sorry you have to read the whole thing.

Heres a link that better explains Biota

Life on Earth

A Dictionary of Earth Sciences | 1999 | AILSA ALLABY and MICHAEL ALLABY | Copyright

biota: The living organisms occupying a place together, e.g. marine biota, terrestrial biota.


Pathogens are not life supporting organisims but life threatening, thats why the virus is next to the tree and not on the tree, the reasoning being it would kill the tree.

heres a link that shows the symbiotic relationship between microbial biota and a species of grass.

Assessment of microbial biota associated with rhizosphere of wheat (Triticum aestivum) during flowering stage and their plant growth promoting traits. - ISPUB

This is the difference in microbiota and pathogens:
First to define the two>
__________________________________________________ _______________
microbiota /mi·cro·bi·o·ta/ (-bi-ōt´ah) (microfauna, microflora) The smallest soil organisms, comprising bacteria, fungi, algae, and protozoa. the microscopic living organisms of a region. Called also microbial flora. <<< Life


__________________________________________________ ______________
path·o·gen
[path-uh-juhn, ‐jen]
any disease-producing agent, especially a virus, bacterium, or other microorganism. Pathogen, infectious agent is a biological agent that causes death, disease or illness to its host. (pathogen, opportunistic), an infectious agent that can only cause disease when the host's resistance is low. < death

http://ceeb.uoregon.edu/faculty_pages/Roy/papers/34.pdf

__________________________________________________ ______________
Flora and Fauna / The flora and fauna of any given region are usually explained in biological terms to include the genus and species of plant and animal life, their preferred growing or breeding habits, and their connection to one another in the environment as well. In addition to geographical groupings, environment also helps further their classification. For example, aquatic flora and fauna of a region refers to the plant and animal life found in the waters in or surrounding a geographic region. < biota (life)
__________________________________________________ _______________

Ok so this is where we are at so far in hydroponics from a biological stand point when refering to what is refered to as (biota)>>

In hydroponics we have created a living soiless enviroment for plants to grow. now lets look at the components of our hydroponics garden systems and compare them to a soil based garden.

Hydroponic = artifical rhizosphere
A. Media = (no nutient value)
B. nutrient rich water (nutrient value)
C. reservoir, media with water & nutes= ( steril rhizosphere)

soils natural rhizosphere

A. Dirt ( nutrient value) due to microfauna ie. nematodes, fungi, and bacteria.
B. water ( no nutrient value unless fertlizer is added)
C. The ground,, earth, soil (see figure A)
__________________________________________________ ______________
rhi·zo·sphere
The rhizosphere is the narrow region of soil that is directly influenced by root secretions and associated soil microorganisms. Soil which is not part of the rhizosphere is known as bulk soil. The rhizosphere contains many bacteria that feed on sloughed-off plant cells, termed rhizodeposition, and the proteins and sugars released by roots. Protozoa and nematodes that graze on bacteria are also more abundant in the rhizosphere. Thus, much of the nutrient cycling and disease suppression needed by plants occurs immediately adjacent to roots.
__________________________________________________ _______________
( humor me, lets say its a brand new hydroponic system)
We in essence have created a artifical rhizosphere in hydroponics with a reservoir and media and the presence of (biota) is absent at first, that is if we havent used any microbial additives, or we are using an organic nute and then again its not present right away, it will take a little time for it to find its way into your system, more than likely if your system is outdoors (biota) will appear in your system much faster then say a system that is indoors.

Last edited by CAPT38; 01-27-2013 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 01-27-2013, 06:55 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post

P.S.
One of the key features of compost tea is the living microbes. Do you have a plan to keep them alive in the compost tea until you use the compost tea? Or will they die within days while the compost tea is in storage before you get a chance to use it? That's the single biggest reason I haven't ventured into making compost tea, I haven't learned how to store the unused portions effectively yet.
These are very good questions, and will make my best attempt to elaborate.

First as lets look at three different compost teas:
__________________________________________________ _______________
1. AACT Actively Aerated Compost Tea
2. VCT Vermi-Compost Tea
3. FCT Fremented Compost Tea ( Bokashi Composting)
__________________________________________________ _______________
1. AACT Actively Aerated Compost Tea
http://www.inbloomgardendesign.com/f...urces/AACT.pdf
__________________________________________________ _______________
2. VCT Vermi-Compost Tea
Vermicompost tea (VCT) : University of Minnesota Extension
__________________________________________________ _______________
3. FCT Fermented Compost Tea
Bokashi Composting - The Art and Science of Fermenting Kitchen Scraps
__________________________________________________ _______________

Now as we have read about the 3 kinds of compost teas we can see that AACT and VCT are just about the same, and FCT is alot different. AACT and VCT both use aeration and FCT doesnt ( I would like to add that FCT isnt appealing for hydroponic use) also FCT is acidy. So, AACT and VCT both of these can be used as a viable organic nutrient in hydroponics, AACT and VCT are both viable teas to use as a hydroponic nutrient. As long they are brewed correctly.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Increasing ammounts of Microflora and Microfauna in a nutrient tea when used in a hydroponic application, can be an issue due to the fact that the bacteria, nematodes and fungi, that are living in your system are multiplying, and further more they occupy the roots of your plants. an increased amount of Biota can smother a plants roots and deprive the plants of oxygen and nutrients making the plant weak and vulnerable to disease. Proper flushing of your hydroponic system will help control increasing amounts of biota.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Just assuming your talking about bottling it and saving it for later use...
GPS the answer to your question about storing compost tea. Well I really dont think you can unless you have the proper lab equiptment because all the living organisims cant survive without a constant supply of sugars and most importantly oxygen. But you can alway keep a constant supply of bacteria nematodes and fungi and of the same type .

All you have to do is save the used compost after you have made a batch of tea and mix that in with your compost pile, or add it to you next batch of tea.
You simply just make more.
Or you can culture it.

Last edited by CAPT38; 01-28-2013 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:07 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Hello CAPT38,
Sorry for the late reply, but I have been working on quite a few things lately, and I just don't have much spare time these days. To quote specific parts, just highlight the part of the post you want to quote. Place the courser where you want to place it, then click the quote icon (4'th from the right on the bottom row) above where you type the text. Then paste the text in-between the quote html tags. Or paste the text where you want it, then highlight it, and click the quote icon.

Quote:
No, thats is not the case beacause , I do really understand the definition of Biota there is a product called Biota max Biota Max™ Soil Probiotic, beneficial bacteria and fungi biota [bahy-oh-tuh] - noun - the complete collection of organisms in a soil, region, or period of time
This is why beveling in product propaganda is just plain wrong. Just giving a product a title, does NOT make the name a real scientific definition, or even make the product trustworthy. If you want a real definition look in a dictionary.

Quote:
The definition of biota is:[/U]
biota /bi·o·ta/ (bi-ō´tah) all the living organisms of a particular area; the combined flora and fauna of a region.
This is the definition you posted, and I don't disagree with it at all, it mimics all the other dictionary's definitions I have read as well. But you are always reading something into it that doesn't exist. That is why I say you are misunderstanding the definition. Notice the phrase "all the living organisms of a particular area." Pathogens are "living organisms" too, pathogens are NOT DEAD ORGANISMS. The time and space where the organisms reside makes no bearing on the fact that they are living organisms. In order to EXCLUDE pathogens from this definition, you must conclude that pathogens are NOT LIVING ORGANISMS which is completely false. Every time you use the term biolta, your referring to any living organisms as well. However the difference and why I say you misunderstand the term is despite the clear definition ("all the living organisms"), every time you use the term, you make the unjustified assumption that they are only talking about beneficial organisms, and somehow cant be pathogenic. Despite the fact that the definition is clear and dose not make any definition in what type of living organism in that regard.

Quote:
Plant species alter biota in ways that lead to either positive or negative plant
Absolutely, plants can alter the microorganisms living near their roots, as well as other things. But that still does NOT CHANGE in any way the DEFINITION of the term biota.

Quote:
Biota is not just any living orginisim
Every definition you posted so far disagrees, as well as the video you posted, and every definition I found as well. Not one makes any distinction between beneficial living organisms, or pathogenic living organisms. Find me a creditable definition that specifies biota only refers to beneficial organisms. Case in point, the definition you posted clearly states "all the living organisms." that clearly includes all and any living organisms.

Quote:
Because to much biota will smother your plant by consuming all the O2 in the water and when that happens all you benifical orginisims ( biota) will die then thats when the pathogens will destroy your plants
There is no such thing as too many beneficial microbes. Your thinking of algae (micro flora). Typically we think of algae as green, but it comes in many colors (brown, red, yellow etc.). And yes algae will consume dissolved oxygen from the water, but you need a massive amount to do any harm by depleting oxygen. However on the other hand algae can wind up being a food source for pathogens, especially dying algae.

Quote:
A Dictionary of Earth Sciences | 1999 | AILSA ALLABY and MICHAEL ALLABY | Copyright

biota: The living organisms occupying a place together, e.g. marine biota, terrestrial biota.
Again, exactly my point. Where does it specify in this definition "You" posted where it makes any distinction between beneficial organisms verse pathogenic ones? It doesn't, the definition includes all "living organisms". The reference to the space in which they reside makes no difference unless you can exclude any pathogens from residing in that space as well. And that simply is not part of any definition of biota.

Quote:
Pathogens are not life supporting organisms but life threatening, thats why the virus is next to the tree and not on the tree, the reasoning being it would kill the tree.
True that pathogens are life threatening organisms. But there are two problems with that statement. First while a virus is a living organism, their not the only type of living organisms. Second is that pathogens DO attack the root systems if they have a chance, as well as the plants foliage.

Quote:
This is the difference in microbiota and pathogens:
First to define the two>
__________________________________________________ _______________
microbiota /mi·cro·bi·o·ta/ (-bi-ōt´ah) (microfauna, microflora) The smallest soil organisms, comprising bacteria, fungi, algae, and protozoa. the microscopic living organisms of a region. Called also microbial flora. <<< Life


__________________________________________________ ______________
path·o·gen
[path-uh-juhn, ‐jen]
any disease-producing agent, especially a virus, bacterium, or other microorganism. Pathogen, infectious agent is a biological agent that causes death, disease or illness to its host. (pathogen, opportunistic), an infectious agent that can only cause disease when the host's resistance is low. < death
These are two separate definitions, not a combined definition. Notice how in the biota definition, how it makes no distinction between beneficial or pathogenic life (but as I said you misunderstand it). However in the definition of pathogen it clearly makes the distinction (disease-producing) between beneficial and harmful? There is nothing in that definition of biota that excludes pathogens either (death). However you misinterpret the term biota as beneficial (life) organisms ONLY, when the true definition clearly states otherwise (life or death).

Quote:
rhi·zo·sphere
The rhizosphere is the narrow region of soil that is directly influenced by root secretions and associated soil microorganisms.
The rhizosphere is just relating to the area which comes in direct contact with the roots. That has no bearing on weather a beneficial microbe, or a pathogenic microbe is within contact of the root. And does NOT change the definition of biota. It doesn't matter where the organism is (in contact with the root, or on top of your head) it's still either beneficial or pathogenic, and the definition of biota does NOT make a distinction between the two.
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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 02-09-2013 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:41 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Fauna is all of the animal life of any particular region or time. The corresponding term for plants is flora. Flora, fauna and other forms of life such as fungi are collectively referred to as biota.

Fauna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as refering to the brown slime in his 55gal barrel

further more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biota_(taxonomy) < {fig A.}

I think the statement was.. " the brown slime is called biota" and then something something like its just all the benifical organisims in your hydroponic system.

[Microbiota (disambiguation)|Microbiota]]
Microbiota (as a plural noun) also refers to microflora and microfauna in an ecosystem.

In essence what I was refering to was 1. the microfauna of his nutrient tank ie. all organisms in given area:= his nutient reservoir.

If you like i can revise my statment and change it to Microbiota.
But we can also just agree that we disagree.

Also in some of my mycology projects I have discovered some contamination (Trichoderma harzianum) which I have isolated in a petri dish. IF you would like me to culture a few dishes for you it would be no problem or i can tell you how to culture it yourself, Trichoderma H. is quite easy to culture.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:36 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Thumbs up It seems that I do know what I am talking about.

Soil biology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Soil biology is the study of microbial and faunal activity and ecology in soil. Soil life, soil biota, or edaphon is a collective term for all the organisms living within the soil. These organisms include earthworms, nematodes, protozoa, fungi, bacteria and different arthropods. Soil biology plays a vital role in determining many soil characteristics yet, being a relatively new science, much remains unknown about soil biology and about how the nature of soil is affected.

( I am not seeing anything about pathenogens )??? but I do see (SOIL LIFE and SOIL BIOTA)
But in hydroponics we dont deal with soil do we?

The soil is home to a large proportion of the world's biodiversity. The links between soil organisms and soil functions are observed to be incredibly complex. The interconnectedness and complexity of this soil ‘food web’ means any appraisal of soil function must necessarily take into account interactions with the living communities that exist within the soil. We know that soil organisms break down organic matter, making nutrients available for uptake by plants and other organisms. The nutrients stored in the bodies of soil organisms prevent nutrient loss by leaching.> Microbial exudates< act to maintain soil structure, and earthworms are important in bioturbation. However, we find that we don't understand critical aspects about how these populations function and interact. The discovery of glomalin in 1995 indicates that we lack the knowledge to correctly answer some of the most basic questions about the biogeochemical cycle in soils. We have much work ahead to gain a better understanding of how soil biological components affect us and the biosphere.

In balanced soil, plants grow in an active and steady environment. The mineral content of the soil and its heartiful structure are important for their well-being, but it is the life in the earth that powers its cycles and provides its fertility. Without the activities of soil organisms, organic materials would accumulate and litter the soil surface, and there would be no food for plants. The soil biota includes:
Megafauna: size range - 20 mm upward, e.g. moles, rabbits, and rodents.
macrofauna: size range - 2 to 20 mm, e.g. woodlice, earthworms, beetles, centipedes, slugs, snails, ants, and harvestmen.
Mesofauna: size range - 100 micrometres to 2 mm, e.g. tardigrades, mites and springtails.
Microfauna and Microflora: size range - 1 to 100 micrometres, e.g. yeasts, bacteria (commonly actinobacteria), fungi, protozoa, roundworms, and rotifers. ( still not seeing anything about viruses or pathenogens)

Of these, bacteria and fungi play key roles in maintaining a healthy soil. They act as decomposers that break down organic materials to produce detritus and other breakdown products. Soil detritivores, like earthworms, ingest detritus and decompose it. Saprotrophs, well represented by fungi and bacteria, extract soluble nutrients from delitro. The ants (macrofaunas) help by breaking down in the same way but they also provide the motion part as they move in their armies. Also the rodents, wood-eaters help the soil to be more absorbent.

(saprotroph [ˈsæprəʊˌtrəʊf]
n
(Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Microbiology) any organism, esp a fungus or bacterium, that lives and feeds on dead organic matter Also called saprobe saprobiont

Soil life table <<<<<<< hmm... SOIL BIOTA?

This table is a résumé of soil life, [1] coherent with prevalent taxonomy as used in the linked Wikipedia articles.


Bacteria are single-cell organisms and the most numerous denizens of agriculture, with populations ranging from 100 million to 3 billion in a gram. They are capable of very rapid reproduction by binary fission (dividing into two) in favourable conditions. One bacterium is capable of producing 16 million more in just 24 hours. Most soil bacteria live close to plant roots and are often referred to as rhizobacteria. Bacteria live in soil water, including the film of moisture surrounding soil particles, and some are able to swim by means of flagella. The majority of the beneficial soil-dwelling bacteria need oxygen (and are thus termed aerobic bacteria), whilst those that do not require air are referred to as anaerobic, and tend to cause putrefaction of dead organic matter. Aerobic bacteria are most active in a soil that is moist (but not saturated, as this will deprive aerobic bacteria of the air that they require), and neutral soil pH, and where there is plenty of food (carbohydrates and micronutrients from organic matter) available. Hostile conditions will not completely kill bacteria; rather, the bacteria will stop growing and get into a dormant stage, and those individuals with pro-adaptive mutations may compete better in the new conditions. Some gram-positive bacteria produce spores in order to wait for more favourable circumstances, and gram-negative bacteria get into a "nonculturable" stage. Bacteria are colonized by persistent viral agents (bacteriophages) that determine gene word order in bacterial host.
bacteriophages
bacteria-infecting virus: a virus that infects bacteria and may integrate into the genetic material of its host cell. Bacteriophages are used as vectors in gene cloning and have other biotechnological uses.

Bacteriophages
bacteria-infecting virus: a virus that infects bacteria and may integrate into the genetic material of its host cell. Bacteriophages are used as vectors in gene cloning and have other biotechnological uses. <<<<< just so you understand about viruses

David Attenborough points out the plant, fungi, animal relationship that creates a "Three way harmonious trio" to be found in forest ecosystems, wherein the plant/fungi symbiosis is enhanced by animals such as the wild boar, deer, mice, or flying squirrel, which feed upon the fungi's fruiting bodies, including truffles, and cause their further spread (Private Life Of Plants, 1995). A greater understanding of the complex relationships that pervade natural systems is one of the major justifications of the organic gardener, in refraining from the use of artificial chemicals and the damage these might cause. <<<<<<<< the word for the day is ORGANIC

Recent research has shown that arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi produce glomalin, a protein that binds soil particles and stores both carbon and nitrogen. These glomalin-related soil proteins are an important part of soil organic matter.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:55 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Default Virus

The cell is the basic structural and functional unit of all known living organisms. It is the smallest unit of life that is classified as a living thing >>>>(except virus, which consists only from DNA/RNA covered by protein and lipids)<<<<<, and is often called the building block of life.[1] Organisms can be classified as unicellular (consisting of a single cell; including most bacteria) or multicellular (including plants and animals). Humans contain about 100 trillion (1014) cells.[2] Most plant and animal cells are between 1 and 100 µm and therefore are visible only under the microscope

This clearly states that a virus isnt a living organisim

bacteriophages
bacteria-infecting virus: a virus that infects bacteria and may integrate into the genetic material of its host cell. Bacteriophages are used as vectors in gene cloning and have other biotechnological uses.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:54 PM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Exclamation You should test your theory.

Quote:
There is no such thing as too many beneficial microbes. Your thinking of algae (micro flora). Typically we think of algae as green, but it comes in many colors (brown, red, yellow etc.). And yes algae will consume dissolved oxygen from the water, but you need a massive amount to do any harm by depleting oxygen. However on the other hand algae can wind up being a food source for pathogens, especially dying algae.
Ok so lets test your theory:

You told me you are using a product that adds Trich. H to your system and I am sure there is a recomended ammount that is to be used per gallon..... forget about the recomended amount and use 50 times that amount... let me explain to you what will happen.....
Your system will incubate 50 times the ammount of the fungus, plus the bacteria thats in your system will all need oxygen including the plants. Now this doesnt seem like its going to be alot but as the temperature of the root system warms, the rate of respiration of the root tissue also increases and more oxygen is required by the plant. This means that the dissolved oxygen in solution will be much more rapidly depleted and the plants can suffer from oxygen starvation for a period of time.
When this happens under continuing anaerobic conditions, plants produce a stress hormone - ethylene which accumulates in the roots and causes collapse of the root cells. Once root deterioration caused by anaerobic conditions has begun, opportunist pathogens will attack your plants.
Now let me key in on how a bacteria becomes a pathogen. Bacteria reproduce and its called bacteria conjugation, and this is basicly a transfer of of genetic material between bacteria and what happens is the donor bacteria transfers plasmids to the recieving bacteria, now most conjugtive plasmids cannot be transfered to a bacteria that has the same plasmids. Oh yeah let me mention that a plasmid is a double strand of DNA ( its not something thats not living) but it can replicate like a virus ( in a host ) but this doesnt mean that the bacteria is going to become a pathogen there are several other factors that will need to come into play such as, other bacterial secretions that can act as virulence factors, as well as bacterial numbers (via quorum sensing or the two component signal transduction pathway), toxins, change in environment, temperature, mutation ect..


See the biological definition of Biota.

Last edited by CAPT38; 03-13-2013 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:39 AM
smurf smurf is offline
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I am not trying to be picky. Just letting you know. Organic and hydroponics never can happen. Organic must be grown in soil. Thats not to say the stuff you use is not organic. Just saying by rules.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:56 AM
FLCRACKER1 FLCRACKER1 is offline
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ORGANIC HYDRO CAN WORK.I've done it in verti gro stackes w pine bark .Nute were:neptune harvest fish,ocean solution,quantam growth microbes,seaweed.Grew mustard greens and squash,worked pretty well.
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:45 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
I am not trying to be picky. Just letting you know. Organic and hydroponics never can happen. Organic must be grown in soil. Thats not to say the stuff you use is not organic. Just saying by rules.
I am growing organically in my hydroponic system now. It can be done.

Here is a link to organic hydroponics
3 Boys Farm, Award-winning Organic & Hydroponic Vegetable Growers - YouTube

to get a usda 100% organic stamp ..... means you have to be 100% organic.

Last edited by CAPT38; 03-09-2013 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:23 PM
smurf smurf is offline
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Organic hydroponics uses organic fertilizer. Conventional hydroponics cannot use organic fertilizer because organic compounds contained in hydroponic solution inhibit the growth of the crop roots, so it uses only inorganic fertilizer.

In organic hydroponics, organic fertilizer is degraded into inorganic nutrients by microorganisms in the hydroponic solution via ammonification and nitrification. The microorganisms are cultured with a method of multiple parallel mineralization. The culture solution can be used as the hydroponic solution.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:05 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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The first synthetic hydroponic nutrient was first developed in 1859, hydroponics or water culture has been around since the 1500s. that's before there were synthetic and chemical fertilizers.

That's why I use the words synthetic nutrients and organic nutrients.

The difference is simply that organic nutrients, don't contain any harsh chemicals that are harmful to the environment. Organic nutrients allow a slow release of nutrients, enabling the plants to have a consistent source of food, and encourage healthy growth, of naturally occurring beneficial organisms (which aren't in synthetic nutrients). Which means you cant chemically burn up your plants.

I don't have a ppm meter and have never used one, I use a feeding schedule as recommend by the product brand, and it seems to work very well. All I check is the ph in my system. Growing hydroponically with totally organic nutrients is actually easier and cheaper than growing hydroponically with man-made chemicals by eliminating the need to balance different nutrient levels with ppm and pH in the water reservoir eliminates most of the problems associated with hydroponic growing.

Last edited by CAPT38; 03-11-2013 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 05-13-2014, 05:43 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurf View Post
Organic hydroponics uses organic fertilizer. Conventional hydroponics cannot use organic fertilizer because organic compounds contained in hydroponic solution inhibit the growth of the crop roots, so it uses only inorganic fertilizer.

In organic hydroponics, organic fertilizer is degraded into inorganic nutrients by microorganisms in the hydroponic solution via ammonification and nitrification. The microorganisms are cultured with a method of multiple parallel mineralization. The culture solution can be used as the hydroponic solution.
In response to your statement:

Studies for establishing organic hydroponics have been conducted for long time. Kennedy Space Center had studied organic hydroponics for crop production in space.[2] It was necessary to develop the method to generate nitrate from organic fertilizer via ammonification and nitrification, because most of crops are nitrate-phylic but not ammonium-philic. It is easy to generate ammonium from organic fertilizer by saprophytic microorganisms. However it was difficult to degrade organic fertilizer to nitrate efficiently because the growth of nitrifying bacteria, such as the obligate chemolithoautotrophs Nitrosomonas spp. and Nitrospira spp., is particularly inhibited by the presence of organic compounds (Jensen 1950; Quastel and Scholefield 1951; Rittenberg 1969; Smith and Hoare 1977; Krummel and Harms 1982; Takahashi et al. 1992; Stutte 1996; Xu et al. 2000; Tomiyama et al. 2001).

Shinohara (1) invented the method to efficiently generate nitrate from in water. The method, multiple parallel mineralization, consists of three manipulations: small inoculation of soil microorganisms, addition of small amounts of organic fertilizer, and aeration. The mineralized solution can be used as the hydroponic solution and organic fertilizer can be added in the solution during cultivation. This is the first practical organic hydroponics technique that organic fertilizer can be added directly during cultivation.
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Old 07-27-2014, 08:40 AM
CAPT38 CAPT38 is offline
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Default Just a little Hydroponics online blog

Organic Compost Tea for your hydroponic system | Hydroponics Blog - Hydroponics Articles - Hydroponics Online
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Old 11-03-2014, 06:00 AM
keriacrick keriacrick is offline
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Is there any process after i have already done this.
pokie strategy

Last edited by keriacrick; 11-04-2014 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 11-03-2014, 06:27 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keriacrick View Post
Is there any process after i have already done this.
What do you mean??

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