Hydroponic at 45-50 degree celcious
 

Hello all

I have recently start learning about hyderoponic . I want to setup a facility in my area but i'm curious since in my area in summer temperature goes till 35-50 degree celcious , or say 90-120 Fahrenheit . Is that a good option. and what kind of vegetable or crop i should go for . I was thinking about tomato and strawberry but it seems that they can't live on that heigh temperature. Please somebody suggest something

Thanks

KP

I will be able to answer your question in a few months time:) First summer I am growing hydroponically in the country I am currently living, I did grow tomatoes and peppers in containers last year, lots of water and they struggled during the hottest parts ofthe day.

Tomato's generally like warm weather, 120F is a bit high but may still work fine, especially if you use heat tolerant variety's and place them where they get shade in the hottest part of the day. I live in the desert where the summer temps reach over 120F every day starting late June-early July. I had strawberry's growing last summer, but I pulled the plug on them in early July because I was unable to keep the nutrient solution temp under control. But I had hundreds of flowers on 32 strawberry plants at that time, with berry's as well. I had a shade cloth structure covering them to help protect from the direct sunlight. Though you will probably get smaller berry's with the higher air temp than you would in cooler temps. You will need to cool the berry's down quickly once picked, or they wont last long at all. Like sticking them in the freezer right away for 15-20 minutes before sticking them into the refrigerator.

Peppers do well in the heat, I think just about all variety's of them. I had some growing last summer but I had the same problem with controlling the nutrient temp with them as well, so I pulled the plug on them for the same reason. For me, the nutrient temp is my biggest issue in the summer. I have some honeydew melons seeds started that I plan to try this summer. I will place them on the side of the house where it gets shade in the hottest part of the day (afternoon-evening). Make sure you keep the nutrient solution temp at or below 72F or the plants will suffer.

I will build a geothermal reservoir for the nutrients. I will be building a insulated box-trench to contain the growing medium and roots. As well as a insulated top for the box with the plants sticking up through it (removable without hurting the plants). I hope to even paint the outside with white roofing insulation for even more protection. It will be a drip system with all the above ground lines insulated with pipe insulation. That should keep the root zone cool.

@instructkamal,

Think seasonal as it is the first rule with such hot climate. Grow your long term crops including tomatoes and strawberries in winter and early spring and in the hottest month more heat tolerant and short term vegetables.

With the big heat you have to adopt, as it will not to you or your plants. Either you grow heat resistant vegetables only or you grow what you want, BUT lower the temperatures with cooling systems in a more closed environment like a cooled greenhouse, cooled nutrients, etc which is always more expensive and energy consuming. Or you can make a break for 2-3 month with limited and resistant plants during the hottest time - than you don't have to "pull the plug" on anything.

My hint: work out a seasonal strategy and stick to it.

If your concerned with the 120F temperatures I assume you are planing on growing outside. I am not sure what your winter time temps get, but here it gets into the 30'sF. I don't think you will have much luck with tomato's in and around those temps. The cold was too much for mine (along with another problem). I had a plan to cover them and heat the inside at night, but I never had the money to complete it. You may be able to find cold tolerant variety's, but tomato's mostly like and do better in warm weather.

Cooling in the summertime is and can be expensive, that's why I like the idea of using "geothermal energy" (free energy) to cool the nutrient solutions. I didn't really have that option last summer. I recently built a geothermal reservoir for my tomatoes that only cost me $30-$35 for a 20 gallon reservoir. I plan on building the same one for my melons.

Obviously each and everyone has to consider his/her own climate and seasonal temperatures and changes. If you are at the equator you have almost the very same climate and temperatures with only minor changes (28-32°C) all year round. In more "desert-like" or mountainous regions, you got these extreme changes in temperatures. In other more northernm but still tropical or sub tropical regions you got very hot and short summers, an extended monsoon season and a relatively short cool or moderate season.

Maybe instructkamal simply tells us where the actual location is and what the yearly temperatures and the climate actually is, - before we get into a purely subjective debate on principles that do not apply at that end ;)

I am in fact consulting with a colleague in Pakistan at the moment who has developed a heat resistant tomato hybrid and yet faces serious BER problems from 30°C upwards. And here we are talking commercial growing according to high seasonal market prices, that at least legitimates the effort and the extravagance that is done here.

Especially for beginners and people who have more seasonal flexibility, I STRONGLY recommend to respect the seasonal climate if only they can. Simply avoid planting such heat sensitive plants like tomato and strawberries during the hottest months (like everyone else in the region does), because climatic conditions are clearly unfavorable.

Even if cooling down your nutrients by any means there are or you may have at your disposal, the air temperatures may still prevent blooming or proper fruit setting with these. You can always go against all odds and "pull the plug" when it goes wrong again for the second or even third time, - but how smart is that at the end?! :confused:

You should not assume that there is only going to be one person who reads the post. So specif and exact conditions are helpful with decisions, but other people want to apply the information to there exact conditions also. Subjective debate is the point, not just principles that are only useful to one person.
Not for the home hydroponic guarder, and especially the beginner. As mentioned there are ways to keep them warm, and there are ways to keep them cool if one wants to take that on. But most first time people don't really want to try and do that (again there is more than one person reading this thread).
I don't know where you get your tomato plants from, but mine are not nearly as heat sensitive as yours are. I grew them in soil successfully all summer long in California where we had weeks of over 100F degree days. They were not even heat tolerant varieties. Strawberry's as well, but they didn't get enough sunlight being so close to the ground in that location. But yes it is best to grow seasonal plants, when growing outside in the natural climate. Talking to local nursery's will help with those decisions.

But the conditions don't need to be 100% perfect, they never are, and both tomato's and strawberry's grew well for me in 100 degree heat. Even though strawberry's are generally considered cool weather crops (from what I understand) but they grew well for me in our 120 degree days here (under shade cloth) even so. Even our local farms in southern Calif were growing strawberry's in 100 degree weather, so I was just doing "like everyone else in the region does." They sell strawberry plants here in the desert (the ones I grew) in late spring, they wouldn't be doing that if they weren't expected to survive into the summer.

The only reason I pulled the plug was because of the 90 degree nutrient solution temperatures. Adding ice was helpful but I wasn't able to make enough to cool down 40 gallons twice a day when the outside air temp got into the 120 degree range. Even if I could, it wouldn't stay within the low 70's for more than a few hours. It was just to hot to spend all day digging the required dirt (rock), not to mention I had no money what so ever to buy what I needed to build the geothermal reservoir. I would (and will) do it again in a hart beat as long as I can keep the nutrient temp down efficiently.
Fruit setting was not a problem for me, but as I mentioned you may get smaller berry's because of the high air temp. Also when there are many berry's on one stem. But as long as you are not expecting the largest berry's, and are willing to do some trial and error it's completely doable. That at least legitimates the effort
Learning from the experience is invaluable for anything, without doing so you wont ever be able to fix the problems. Not even trying is the real problem. In the end that's the only way to learn, and in turn is invaluable for those who want to learn, rather than just being told what to do like a sheep.

Seasonal planting applies for most crops and around the world, it has always been and still is what experienced and smart people do locally. It's part of what is called adapting and "collaborating" with nature.

We are talking 45-50° C here, - that's up to 122° Fahrenheit right?
For the sake of it, be reasonable and realistic and forget about contradicting me for one time!

No way to talk around or giving analogies from other cases that will certainly not apply here. No expert would ever recommend growing strawberries or tomato in soil or in hydroponics under temperatures reaching 122° Fahrenheit, or agree to install what ever it takes to lower temperatures to fit the crops. For beginners and amateurs that haven't the toolset and experience, it would certainly end up in a waste of time and some kind or the other of disaster .

You can always install and build whatever it takes to "fight nature"- IF you can and want to go down that road by all means. But in some cases like this, the price (in a large sense) would be much to high. In small scale it wouldn't be reasonable and rentable anyway - and big scale would only be justified and rentable when expected market value/price would truly justify the work, the technical means and the total investment.

In some cases not even trying is the problem, but in many others trying the impossible and irrational becomes even a bigger problem ;-)

The sheep is the one who follows blindly and listens to what is told easily - while the Black Sheep is the one who principally doesn't listen to anyone and doesn't ever admit any error. It does strictly everything his/her own way even if a thousand experts and 2000 specialists are making the contrary more than obvious, even if the whole family and all friends say differently. This kind of sheep can't see further than the end of its nose, I believe.

Well it works for stupid people also. I have been there and done that. I guess your saying that I am lying, (well tough). I have my experiences even if you don't like them. You think you are the only smart person on the planet? If you want to trade insults I will be happy to ablidge, I can do that well and have fun with it.
Yes that's my understanding, by the way that's the exact temperatures/conditions that I live in (even up to 128 Fahrenheit) so I am well aware of them. The temperature on the day the earlier pictures I posted were taken were about 110 degrees Fahrenheit daily.
That's your problem, I have had my experiences in life, and if you don't like them why don't you have them for me. You don't need to agree with me, but you have not lived my life, and I'm not part of your congregation.
Well if the experts like you (I say that laughing) would not recommend something that works, why ask an expert. I am not an expert but I have done it. So it stands to reason if the EXPERTS don't know what they are doing, and a stupid person like me can do it, an expert isn't worth that much (at least the ones you know).
Yes you are right, new people just starting out are defiantly going to want to start out on a large scale, without any experience. Anyone wanting to go down that road wont be asking questions from people they don't know in some forum, and relying on those reply's.
So now you think you are 2000 experts all rolled into one, and you are the principal that you consider yourself the "anyone" that I and everyone else needs to just believe. I contently find mistakes, and I admit to them when I do. I never do otherwise. Some mistakes are harder to admit to than others, and even made with honest intentions. But if you are going to be honest with yourself there's no other choice, and I need to look at myself in the mirror in the morning.

I give others the benefit of the doubt, thus respect, simply because I don't know there situation, they don't know mine either. I expect the same back, and when I'm in the presence of others that are disrespected, you'll receive the same disrespect back. I have never considered myself (or said) I was an expert. I'm an honest person (even if it hurts), but I wont just believe something because one person (much less you) say I should, especially when I have already seen otherwise for myself. If I only have two choices (fallow blindly, or do my own thing regardless), then I have only one choice because I will never fallow blindly. So you will need to find another congregation member for the church of Luches.

You are taking things too personally again, you are not very objective as usual and projecting too much on me here, suggesting pages of what I haven't ever said nor meant even remotely. That's why you can't make a difference between what is in fact well-meant and what may not...

When I make appeal to an expert opinion I am talking in general of course. Furthermore I'm just appealing to common sense, I guess... unfortunately there seems no-one around that shares it - and it's just "you and me" as usual. The actual poster most probably got already sick of the debate. No invitation for some lurking partisans to get cute or start courting with me again, though... :p

Well let's grab the baldie by the hair then, as you take things personally and can't be objective either anyway, no matter how I put them: Do you really recommend people growing tomato with 122-128 ° Fahrenheit, and implicitly tell them they need to dig out holes that are big enough to accommodate a sniper and his assistant with their weekly ration, plus half of a green house structure around, and the whole enchilada of insulation and all the other stuff that goes with one of your desert setups, - to just grow 4 tomato plants?

Goodness, the expenditure doesn't justify the outcome, no matter how. Not for amateur purposes and not for any facility expansion. And that's exactly (not more and not less) what I am talking about. And one doesn't need to have a PhD in neuro-surgery nor being any expert in any field, to question the expenditure -not even talking about the rentability.

It's all so obvious and yet you apparently can't see any of your views and ideas being actually very uncommon and in fact a prime example of an economically unbearable venture!? You said that you want to do a living of it in the near future. Have you ever made the maths of your investments (including the labor that would be needed for the expansion of those 4 plants) versus your yield or income?

Whats the idea behind a geothermal reservoir GpsFrontier?

Tomato pollen is sterile when temps hit that high (day and night), tried growing them during summer on a sheltered balcony where it was about 45 Celsius day time and 30 at night and got about 99% blossom drop, no problem with vegative growth though and started fruiting again once autumn set in. The Effect of Heat Stress on Tomato Pollen Characteristics is Associated with Changes in Carbohydrate Concentration in the Developing Anthers -- PRESSMAN et al. 90 (5): 631 -- Annals of Botany

Right, they will not set fruits even under lower temperatures than 40°C if night temperatures do not drop considerably. I have a few plants left in a NFT set under actual 39-41+°C, they actually look great, - but obviously not a single fruit is nor will be setting under these conditions! If by some wonder so, I wouldn't be safe of dropping fruits or BER, though....

Well then I guess I am a expert then under those conditions also.
That is exactly what I am referring to, but what is common in this country must be different than what's common in that one.
That is what usually what happens when you get that way, that's what disappointing me the most. You drive off all the people who may have good information, leaving only you.
I would and am.
sniper would never be able to fit in the hole I dug, it's only 30 inches (wanted 36) deep and less than 2 feet wide. It took so much to dig because of the type of ground we have here. If I needed it deeper/bigger, I would just rent a backhoe.
I never suggested to place the greenhouse structure underground.
I already did it for four tomato plants and it only cost about $100 for the whole enchilada.
As posted in this thread:
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...y-tomatos.html
Babble, babble, babble. None of this can take away from anything I know or have done.
I would never make an income from 4 plants. Home gardeners are not trying to make a profit, just spend less at the market. Yes I have done a feasibility study with the SBDA concerning profitability, as well as marketability. There is no guarantees with regards to agriculture (soil or hydro), so I cant (nor can anyone else) guarantee anything. There is a verifiable market. I know what I have done (grown), I also know the hazards and hurdles for my projects in my environment for a commercial project. As well as projected yields (per plant, Highs and lows). But if there was a guaranteed everyone would be doing it.

Geothermal energy is simply the transfer of heat into the ground. The ground sucks the heat out of anything placed deep enough (3-5 feet). Ever been in a cool cave in the hot summer? Geothermal is the ground, energy is the transfer of heat. Once you build it, it's free energy. The key is making maintenance easy with good contact, that's where my plans differ a little from most.
Sorry to hear that, I had great luck with mine. It's quite possible there were other variables involved. I would continue until I figured things out. Then you can adjust things on a larger scale if needed.

You'd even scare a dozen "real experts" away with your quoting mania GPS and you'd also ignore a few more of their second opinions as if they couldn't be trusted anyway. Even more links with scientific facts, experiences, testimonies or what ever would come across here, wouldn't ever change your mind, right?

Sadly enough it is pointless to try to have any dialogue with you.

You are free to ignore all facts and clues that are brought to you, but that doesn't make anything of what you think ore write to any thread or question more credible, more plausible and certainly not recommendable for anyone.

I am not afraid if any so called experts get scared, that is there problem. I have only read the title in the earlier link (I was going to bed), but there is a real difference between reading and doing. The tomato's I grew in Calif had no problem in heat. Yes that wasn't 120+ degrees Fahrenheit, but I have been living in Lake Havasu AZ for about 6 years now, in 120+ degrees Fahrenheit. People grow tomato's in raised flower beds, pots and even prepared soil beds. They do this every year successfully, and they don't seem to stop setting fruit when it gets hot.

This may be because the nursery's usually sell heat tolerant variety's here, I don't know. But the fact is they grow successfully here in our heat when taken care of. I doubt I would ever be able to read anything that can change the past. If that scares the experts, maybe they should stop being experts for a while, and try to find out what the regular people are doing that is working. Then take that information back to expert land.

Do you have any backup or proof of what you are saying there?, I mean that you and others grow tomatoes regularly and successfully under 120+ degree Fahrenheit outdoors (and not in cooled/air conditioned greenhouses)?

Anything of the sort, a second opinion of some grower, a link, whatever evidence would change what you are saying from just someone pretending a thing to becoming a credible statement. Otherwise you could simply pretend just anything to defend your point - it may be true or not and others may believe it or not.

The point is: will tomatoes (and strawberries), you said peppers as well will have no problem btw, set fruits under temperatures up to and a little over 120+ Fahrenheit?!

I am still pretending fruits will not set or very very hardly, and if ever some would, there would be high danger for BER (blossom end rot) dropping off of small fruits. And if there would be just a few fruits by miracle, they would be rather pathetic in size and quality.

That is why under no circumstances (except in air conditioned greenhouses or similar facilities), I do NOT recommend to growing any tomato, strawberry and not even most peppers under temperatures up to 122° Fahrenheit or 50°C. Neither in soil nor in hydroponics.

What if I'd post this topic in some other tomato, AZ or some other gardening or hydroponic forums, just to see what others may think of growing tomato, strawberry etc. under up to 50°C in AZ or elsewhere?

I anyway strongly recommend to anyone interested in this or even interested in growing tomato, strawberry or else in such hot climate to get second opinions on this topic.

I don't deem it necessary to take pictures and statements from my friends, co-workers etc. and have it notarized, just to prove to you or anyone else what they have grown, and what I see with my own eyes. It's very simple plant a plant, see if it grows, if it doesn't under your conditions don't do it again. Or figure out what you can do to make the conditions better and try again. What's to prove?
Good for you! If you don't mind (I don't really care if you do) I think will try anyway. I have already made mention to the size and quality issue, and I never said that they wouldn't grow better in s cooler climate. But when that's what you have to work with (as I do), that's simply what you work with.
Thanks for clearing that up, I was a bit unclear on what you recommend.
Be my guest, I couldn't care any less. I know what I have seen and done, and unless you have a time machine and can go back to change those things. It wouldn't make any difference to me what was said.

Well, all what you say now seems to confirms that you actually have no interest in any real dialogue with others about the topic and the problematics related, nor care about a more general objectivation that would actually be in the interest of others.

In that case I have no interest in any more dialogue with you about the topic either.

My opinion and advise against growing said crops under these extreme conditions are as stated, and they can be confirmed by- or withstand any experts' second opinion.

Good for you! I am still not a member of the church of Luches. There are many people who feel that the USA never actually landed on the moon either, but unless you were on the moon when it happened (even if you were) how would you prove it. All there is Video (that can be faked) and samples brought back that may, or may not be real (depending on the EXPERT you talk to). You either believe the USA landed on the moon or don't believe they did. It cant really be proved either way, there have been many documentary's about it, but no actually 100% un-refutable proof that they did.

But it's so simple to plant a plant and see what happens for yourself, that there is no need to consult any "so called experts" to decide what would happen. The proof either way will be right in front of your eyes. All I suggest is that you try it for yourself and see what happens, rather than rely on what someone that does not live in that area may tell you. What have you lost, $2 for the plant and a few months watching what happens. If that is too much of an investment you should not even be considering growing anything at all.

I am a Workaholic!

"God, Give us the grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed and that we even do not need to try or argue about, as they will not work anyway, no matter how hard- or whatever we try. Courage to try the things which could be tried and indeed be improved or changed to the better, even tough others pretend they'll never work.

And finally give us that important (sometimes missing?) bit of cleverness and wisdom that enables us to distinguish the one from the other, and could put us way ahead of some stubborn and eccentric comrades-in-arms." :D

(Freely modified from "The Serentiy Prayer" by Elisabeth Sifton)

Religion should strictly be kept out of forums, that breeds heated debates that have no concern with the issues of the forum (unless it's a religious forum, this is not). Do you really want to change the issues into a religious issue? That will just bring down the forum. I am fully prepared to take you on in that issue if the owner is OK with it. I have done just that many times before (not online, but face to face) and as far as I can tell, I never lost an important point. But such debated should not be a part of a public forum unless you are trying to breed hatred. Such things are is usually a sign of last resort. I will take you on if you wish!

Goodness, you get everything wrong! As I guess I am more like a prime example of an atheist. I just like good and classic "sayings and quotes" that fit the occasion like a glove. It doesn't matter to me what ever origin they actually were or are, as long as they come handy and can be transformed for my needs (you didn't notice that either, did you?). In other words: I draw and summon up from multiple sources but have no religious beliefs and there is no such connotation in this very or any other context I have ever posted. Thus, it can only be another wrong assumption of yours.

Otherwise, I wonder what it would take to explain to someone with such reactions, how to distinguish between religion and a SIMPLE satiric interlude - to get back to business as usual :)

That's what I will do at my end now...PEACE (no religious connotation intended)! :)

Ge, you never said that before. The only quotes you choose tend to offend people, you obviously take pleasure in that. Are you backing down from the challenge? Is one such as yourself, afraid of an atheist like me? I would not get into the religion thing but I am not afraid either.

I don't force my opinions on others, and I expect the same respect back, (something you cant understand). Give me your best shot. You expect verifiable documentation for things that are not really verifiable.

What makes your brand of unverifiable information any different than mine. If I need to verify every thing thing I speak, what makes you exempt, other than your demanding so. you can demand everything you want, and I'm sure you usually get it. But you are going to need to do a whole lot harder with me.

Why should Satire offend anyone, except if it is completely misunderstood?
And why are you always so negative and serious, even if I try to make my points by trying to be funny (satiric if you prefer)?

Aren't you anyways in opposition by principle and with anything I could possibly try to communicate? Be honest - it really doesn't matter to you what and how I put (write) it anyway, right!? You are just seeking for the snags and the pegs and even if there's any - you'll manage to make up some nevertheless. Does it make any difference or sense to even try to communicate differently? - I guess not!

Is it funny or do I have fun with any of your reactions? As much as I like to have fun - definitely No!

You didn't take the challenge to prove that what you claim is indeed possible and has general or partial consensus. Like it or not, admit it or not, your opposition is simply a point ahead.

Opinions are opinions nothing else, they do not deserve any respect by default. Different people have different opinions and that's just a simple fact, they may vary in quality, are subjective and hence nothing that is suited to prematurely attribute a general value (as respect) to it.

People indeed have- and take their rights of freedom of speech, and in democratic countries are officially entitled to any opinion as long as these are not overruled by other attributes (depending on law in vigor, jurisprudence, situation, culture and other specific conditions). As in rudeness is rudeness and not "an opinion" - hence overruled. As far as I am concerned, there is no respect by principle for the "opinions of anyone" (not even mine by others) but it goes buy meritocratic principles. If something true, confirmed with consensus, scientific proof or whatever it takes to make it credible, interesting, perhaps sensational, amazing - is put in an opinion, it might indeed deserve respect. Other more common things that are externalized as "opinions", even fancy things or some "platitudes" may only be noted, tolerated or considered - but not necessarily be respected in the proper sense. Things that are clearly born from ignorance, stupidity and stubbornness (or any other motivation that isn't constructive or to be respected) in any concerned observer's perspective on the other hand, - do not deserve any respect, not even consideration. Who doesn't see nor make the difference here, (the "prayer" from before might indeed help to understand what it is about) and can't understand that not any "opinion" deserves to be respected, but sometimes need to be overruled by the "thou shalt not show respect for any stupidity" clause, well - fill in whatever clause seems appropriate to overrule any such "opinions" :)

I have to admit, .... it may have ended up in having some fun at the end.... but I believe I do not have any intention of hurting anyone here :)

I am just throwing out a odd hat here - I don't know who may catch it or to whom ever it may fit perfectly well...

Btw: have fun with quoting some of the paragraphs.

If you haven't noticed you are the only one laffing at what you think are jokes.
All in your own head, so much wrong with that, I would need to write a book.
You simply have not proven that all the people in this town who like to grow tomato's don't grow them during the summer months either, like it or not. You just claim they don't.
This belief of yours is exactly why you don't deserve any respect, and why you don't get any back.
You DEMAND respect, and it's most unbecoming. The last two pages of this thread are simply because you don't want someone to plant a plant in this heat, and see if it grows for themselves.

Let's switch to the hard evidence and the facts then (something you actually asked for repeatedly, right?) - a good support for my opinion and reason why I don't recommend growing tomatoes (and strawberries) under temperatures in the ranges of 45-50° Celsius (113 -122 F) according to the thread starters question:

And yes not recommending (and why) that was and is all I was saying in that context!

The first source is directly from University of Arizona, your place right?
__________________________________________________ _____________
1. For tomatoes, day temperatures should be 21° -26° C (70° -79° F) and night temperatures around 16° -18.5° C (61° -65° F)
High temps in excess of 30° C to 35° C will cause many different types of damage to the plants, such as inhibition of growth and even death. The physiological nature of heat damage is thought to involve a denaturation of some protein component of plant cells. Fruit abortion may occur at these temperatures as well.

Source: The University of Arizona
hydroponictomatoes
__________________________________________________ _____________
2. Common Tomato Disorders Under Desert Conditions:
Tomatoes grow best if temperatures range between 70 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit, but can tolerate temperatures lower than 55° F and higher than 100° F for short periods. However, extended periods lower or higher than these temperatures abort the blossoms.

Source: University of Nevada
Common Tomato Disorders Under Desert Conditions
__________________________________________________ _____________
3. When day temperatures exceed 85°F and night temperatures exceed 72°F, tomato flowers will abort. An important factor involved with temperature is time of exposure. The longer the plants are exposed to these high temperatures, the longer the condition will last and the more serious the effect on flowering.

Source: Auburn University AL
Tomato blossom drop
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4. Bloom drop, poor fruit set and/or cat-facing (deformed fruit) induced by high temperature (> 92°F) due to reduced pollination.
Source: Horticultural Sciences, Texas A&M University
cropguides tomato T A&M

__________________________________________________ _____________
5. During unfavorable weather (night temperatures lower than 55°F, or day temperatures above 95°F with drying hot winds), tomatoes do not set and flowers drop. The problem usually disappears as the weather improves.

Source University of Illinois
unfavorable weather
__________________________________________________ _____________
6. Prolonged periods of high temperatures above 90°F and wind during the day are associated with blossom drop.

Source: Oklahoma State University
Prolonged periods of high temperatures
__________________________________________________ _____________

I believe my recommendations and statements, as well as the recommendation to think seasonal with tomatoes and strawberries is sufficiently backed up now even if the "burden of proof" has actually never existed on my side. Isn't it your turn now, to be fair play and deliver some credible and official proof, to justify your repeated and sustained denial and extended rhetoric objection against my recommendations?

I am aware of the University of Arizona website, I have had it bookmarked for a long time. I also am well aware of the extensions services. That is nothing new to me, and I would trust all of the sources you posted. I am not now or ever did say any information from creditable sources are false, that was never my point. But nothing that any of those (or other) sources say (or may say) can discount anything I have said. I never said your plants will be perfect in 120F temps, I never said anything of the sort. I did however say you can grow them, and that people in my town do just that all the time. That is what you are asking me to prove, and you still have not disprove that fact.

The temp here in our town is in the upper 80's (30 C) and it is only late April. Next week it has been forecast to be in the low 90's (about 35 C). By the end of May, and early June the temp will be over 100 F daily (about 40 C). By mid July it will be to the 120 F mark daily (in the 50 C or better range). In 2 1/2 months it will be over 120 F daily until the end of August. Late July we start getting the monsoons, so the humidity is higher also.

Last weekend I was at both Lowe's and Home Depot looking for spinach plants (I never found). But while I was there, they both had displays of the Topsy Turvy tomato planters with live plants in them, even the Strawberry models. These things sell extremely well in this town, and everyone and there brother seem to be getting them. My point is, that people wouldn't be buying these, nor would the stores be wasting valuable shelf space on product's like this, as well as the live plants in there nursery's if people were not buying and growing them. They are not going to buy these plants right now if within 1 to 2 months they would have nothing to show for there efforts because the temp was too high. People grow these plants year after year here, they would not be spending there money if it was just a waist of time. I will have the manager at Lowe's call you tomorrow to verify what I say is true.

I never said that the conditions were prefect. I just say if that is what you have to work with, work with it (like we do here). My other point is that you can read all you want (even from creditable sources), but nothing can replace experience. What can it cost to plant a couple of these plants and see what happens for yourself (while you read up). Like I said "It's very simple plant a plant, see if it grows, if it doesn't under your conditions don't do it again. Or figure out what you can do to make the conditions better and try again. What's to prove?" If you had your way you would stop everyone in this town from even trying. Fortunately they don't know that Luches says not to even try. I guess they succeed simply because they don't know their not supposed to.

People are not allowed to speak if you don't agree with what they have to say, that is simply rude and disrespectful to others (something you are incapable of learning). Everybody in this forum (whatever is left) get that Luches does not recommend trying to grow tomato's and strawberry's in high heat, but nothing gives you the right to demand that they don't even try. You could have simply posted those links, quotes, and simply say this is why I wouldn't recommend it, that wouldn't have been disrespectful. But if you have not learned good social skills yet, I doubt you ever will.

You're clearly overdoing it more and more with every post.

Because that's one more rough distortion of yours, of what I was actually saying, intending and recommending (respectively what my actual and still valid disrecommendation was). The idea that I could talk someone into- or prevent anyone from trying anything at all, is either fear of being neglected and/or not listened to (some "Childhood Trauma"?) or a simple misconception of human nature of the idividual. Look at you, can ANYONE talk you into- or prevent you from trying ANYTHING?! I guess not ;)

I have no doubt that anyone else can draw their own conclusion and take their very own decision about this very endeavour or any other. They are perfectly able to decide if it is worth the try, the effort and the risk (which may be huge indeed) - or not. Thinking or pretending otherwise, - again - I would call that clearly- if not naively -underestimating others.

Ya I had lots of "Childhood Trauma" (NOT) that is just your attempt to place blame on others because you don't understand your lack of social skills. Theoretically no, you cant stop someone from trying, but that's defiantly your goal. Then when you don't feel that someone is taking your advice you get much more demanding until either they just and tell you what you want to hear or just give up or go away.
It happened just last weekend when I was looking for the spinach. Due to our weather, and the fact I cant bring the setup inside to better control temp along with other factors, I chose not to grow spinach right now. If the Write Brothers listened to everyone we would never of had planes, much less a space program. Just going with the flow, no not my style.
I felt that a long time ago, and is all the more reason that if you felt that way, you were just trying to be disrespectful for the sake of it. Me, I will defend myself when called a lair (even in no uncertain terms), I don't just give up and go away like you are used to.

Haven't we all got our childhood traumata and don't we all lack social skills on occasion, or when others push us to the limits? Denial doesn't help here, it just makes it worse and makes the causal chain repeat itself over and over again until we accept us as what and who we truly are.

You don't need no "Luches" to discover your own limits and for instance I do not need any GPS to see my picture in the mirror :D

It's not the others, everyone is his/her worst enemy, even if it takes longer for some to realize that fact. Hence "personal conflicts" repeat themselves with various opponents until they are solved or dissolved. There have been and there will be others to defy you badly and confront you with yourself but me, - if only you'd believe and trust me on something for one single time...;)

To some point I would agree. But there is a big diffidence between occasionally and constantly. I can forgive occasionally, but not constantly.
My thoughts exactly, when you come to terms with yourself and stop denying that you have a huge attitude that turns people off, perhaps you can recover. But I simply don't care if you ever do (not my job).
If you are trying to imply that I don't like myself and only taking it out on you, well that's simply the funnest thing you have said in a great while (thanks for the laugh). But it is still an insult, and exactly what I would expect from you.
You are so arrogant, and you are so desperate for someone to believe you (even me) that you loose site of the points. It is not about who believes who, it is about finding information that applys to you, so you can use it for your situation. That is what helps people, and helps make this forum useful for those looking for it, not egos. What good is all the perfect information in the world if you just drive the potential users and contributors away. When you pick fights as often as you do, your bound to find people from time to time that won't back down from them. That's what your struggle is with me, no mater what you want to blame it on.

My last post was actually meant to think about a bit and apply to yourself "also". It was a way of proposing a concession. This is not a one-way thing, as it would be too easy to blame it all on me. You're much to involved in this debate, to be completely innocent or "the victim" and not an actor yourself - aren't you? And don't you ask yourself why you can't let go? I do! Remember the traumata thing? Maybe you are afraid of me as a symbol figure of someone who "forces you" into some ideas or worse some bad indoctrination you have got in the past? You seem to have a strong aversion against religion, you are full of all kinds of contrariness - all these are clear indications for serious traumata!

Don't you actually wonder if I haven't pulled your leg all along, and that I read you like a book, - but you don't even remotely know what I am thinking or actually am saying. I may be in full control of myself, completely detached - feeding your mind with all kinds of brain-lures and mental challenges and actually just making a case study - watching you play my vicious game?

Yeah, you will pick that up too, quote it for sure and say that I am a truly evil person... I know, - but look at it again, it was a question! Never mind you'll quote that for sure and hold that against me no matter what, right - because you would pick up and split every blade of grass I drop, isn't that so? :o

Actor? I am not a actor in a movie, this is real life that I'm involved with. I don't claim to be 100% blameless, I also never calmed to be a victim either, just willing to defend myself. You simply, and constantly, refuse to treat people in a descent manor (something I learned to do as a child) tormented past or not, that is simply giving others (strangers) the benefit of the doubt (also known as respect).
No, not not at all. Two reasons, I have nothing better to do, and as I said I am happy to defend my actions, especially when called a lair when it is not true. That gets under my skin, and unless I have more pressing issues to deal with I will deal with that one.
I don't even know what the term/word "traumata" refers to or means. I did a quick search and at the top of the list was something about an omelet, I am not going to spend the time to figure out nonsense.
Just when did I ever show that I was afraid of you?
You just need to blame your lack of social skills on others again.
I am perfectly willing to discus any religious issue face to face, I also RESPECT others right to there beliefs as long as they respect mine. I take harshly to being preached to, I don't do that to others and expect the same respect back. Discussing religion and/or politics in a forum breeds hatred. They both are strong belief issues that never have any good outcome. Go to your church and vote your hart, talk with them about it, but unless you are trying to breed hate, leave it off the internet.
No, and I don't care if you have. But that would just reinforce the claims that I made that you do this stuff just for your own amusement. Have fun.
Who cares? Not my problem! That doesn't help make this forum any better. Even if so, that just shows your lack of concern for others, exactly what I have known for what about 9 months now.
You are the one who does not care about the forum and just wants to play games. No it isn't just the last few posts, but 9 MONTHS OF THEM that shows your true colors and why you are always complaining that nobody understands you. You simply only care about yourself. Mind games or not, you are simply unlikeable as a person. That's your problem, not mine. I will still defend myself when necessary. If your goal is to make this forum useless, you are well on your way to doing that (good thing I don't own it). You are simply nothing more than a bully, and I'm not afraid of bully's.

If you really care for the forum, why don't you prevent your Ego from beating users like me verbally up until they get bored or tired, or sick of your thousand quotes and mostly wrong assumptions?

You don't believe you make a good impression here, do you really are that naive?

You jump on every post that shows up and reply to anything as if you were a certified and sworn expert. Asking a hundred questions, quoting the crap out of any post, but you aren't half as smart and knowledgeable as recommended for the forum smart-ass job. The wish to help is noble, but certainly not good enough if you actually don't know much.

I have a few PMs in my mailbox that say "bluntly" how bored an pi**ed people are with you replying to ANYTHING and quoting every of their words without having actual answers, but just making conversation and "learning by actually asking" stuff.

Why and where have the thousand plus members escaped, long before I even showed up here? When I came here it was a kinda DEAD forum and now it is not even half alive and when I'll leave it will most probably not become any better, unless you give people some air to breath except your "desert experience" that has to be poured over everything like house-ketchup.

I remember so well when I tried to explain you the cooling system I build ages ago and already then you wouldn't grab a thing, just because you can't accept anything unless you have bended an formed it your way a few times.

I believe you are damn lucky to be able to blame your later failures and a "desert forum" on me - but let's make a deal: I'll go my way and you will be completely safe from my interventions. You try to catch some folks with your quoting mania and usual high profile forum smart-assing. After a while you may realize by yourself that this forum is not doing bad because of me or anybody else, but perhaps quite a bunch actually goes on your own account...

Deal?
I mean you don't risk anything except recognizing a painful truth eventually. And if the forum would boom an flourish after a short time when I am away, - I'd have to admit that I really screwed up this-one ;)

Btw: I already asked the admin to delete me completely because I do not identify at all with this place and attitude "of yours".... I have tried, but I really have to give up on this-one.

Users like you that have no respect for others , DESERVE NO RESPECT. You don't seem bored at all, you seem to have fun at it. What else is there to do when you have driven off all the users.
Who made you controller and dictator of all the RIGHT ASSUMPTIONS. You simply dismiss anyone else's experiences that you don't like as non creditable.
Just like you, absolutely.
That is complete and utter bull, I HAVE NEVER SAID AND OR CLAIMED THAT I WAS AN EXPERT. In fact, I have stated countless time that I was not an expert, when have you ever done that once?I don't really care what you think. I am not the one complaining that everyone doesn't believe me. If you had a better personality. Perhaps you wouldn't have the problem of people not caring what you have to say. Then you wouldn't need to cry and blame such things on other people . I know plenty, you just don't know how to respect that without DEMANDING everyone simply just believe you.
So I guess that is the equivalent of saying my experiences are null and void, and the only ones that matter are yours. If that is not IGNORANCE then what would qualify.
I have many PMs about you your attitude. But regardless, I can show 3 or 4 threads that other people other than me have complained to you publicly. I can also how many more threads, and posts, that you are simply rude to people so they simply gave up. There is not one Public thread that says anything of that nature about me. I have been involved with every thread that I have posted in and if I got the same reactions that you have I would have respected there opinion of me. Have them PM me with there complaints, otherwise it is just hearsay, as you always complain about.
I never said thousand's, you are just making up stuff again. There are only two active members at this point, (you, and me) nobody else wants to post anything because they are afraid of what might happen. They simply just go somewhere else. I have seen Many people come and go in this forum, and some is natural, but all of them going is not. You are the only one that thinks that they are the all and end all to everything hydroponic.
Yes that was my first experience with you. I wanted to understand but you just made it so difficult to even care. Despite the fact that I was biting my tug and apologizing left and right for being stupid, you would have none of it. Making accusations that were not true, and not believing that I had good intentions. Now that I have many more interactions with you, I understand that that is just your Undesirable personality that I and nobody else cares for, and you call funny.
You have left the forum before. The first time was for about a month, the second was less than that, both times it was because you were in a huff. So what. The simple fact is you are welcome as long as you can be nice to people. You simply cant do that for more than a couple of weeks at a time. You are welcome to leave the forum but that wont change your personality if you do or not.
Yes wasn't that almost two weeks ago, you were replying less than 24 hours after I understood that. But noting I didn't expect.

I asked him to delete you too, ......Just go away, this is a nice forum and you do nothing but drag it down to your level.......Stop making threats about leaving and JUST GO AWAY!

Aren't you a club of finest young Gentlemen that truly deserve a hassle free and cosy place to play hydroponics ?
I believe I have to agree and forgive me for all the bad things I have done.

Goodness, how childish and pathetic this all finishes - I am a bit disappointed at the end :)

never mind

Is there a way to get luches to stop sending me private messages? Admin you need to put a leash on the SOB!