Third system
 

I finally got the third system up and running, I was waiting for the seeds to sprout and get big enough. This is a simple flood and drain design using 4 inch ADS tubing, similar to P.V.C. but it's designed for irrigation. You should be able to find it in the same isle as the P.V.C. tubing at Home Depot and Lowe's hardware stores. The ADS tubing looks much the same but is made of 3 different layers. The inside layer is black (and lightproof), the second provides structural support, the last is the white outer layer. This stuff is real easy to cut and is inexpensive at about $8 for a 10 foot tube. The end caps were $1.97.

I cut holes in the end caps to insert the through holes, then flooded the system to mark where I was going to glue the end caps in place. I just used regular P.V.C. glue that I already had. I also already had the threaded elbow connectors for the P.V.C., and the pieces of 1/2 in P.V.C tubing used for the overflow tube. You will notice on the overflow tube there is a "T" connector with a piece of tubing extending up, then some holes drilled in the end cap of that tube. This is to insure there are no air bubbles that can get trapped in the overflow that might cause it to not function properly. Also the long black piece of P.V.C. that runs the span of the tube is just one I already had from long ago. It had been in the garage so long that it was bent so I just zip tied it to a long piece of wood to kind of striation it out.

The nutrient reservoir is one that I am reusing from my pepper plants last summer. I painted the top black (to lightproof it) then white (to reflect light). The bottom part is actually two containers, one inside the other with spray insulation foam between them. So the insulation provides the light proofing. The stands were just made from 2x4's then painted white. I used a 4 inch tube coupler that I cut in half, then screwed them to the stands for the tube to rest in. I used a buggy cord over the top of the tube (to hold it in place).

I have 3 diffrent plants in this system peas, sugar peas and green beans. I will be building a trellis (similar to the one I have for my tomato's in the background) for these to climb on. I will also be adding summer squash to this system. Though the squash will actually be a drip system running from the same pump. So I will have both drip, and a flood and drain systems running from the same pump. I have a one way flow valve that I got for $8 that will be inline with the drip system. This will allow the nutrient to flow to the drip system but when the pump shuts off it will close. This wont allow any back flow from the drip side of the system that would allow air bubbles, and then stop the siphoning back to the reservoir from the flood and drain side of the system.

ADS tube $8
end caps $1.97 x 2, $4
pump $44
through holes $1.97 x 2, $4
tube coupler $2

Thanks for those pictures. I'm planning something very similar (along with the corn system from the other thread). I have 3 20' sections of deck railing, and I'm thinking about running this along the top of the railings....probably starting with one 20' section and adding others end-to-end when I see how it works. Your plumbing layout looks like it would work perfectly for me. Not sure yet what to plant....have to figure out compatible plants for that large a system.

Sounds great, I would love to see pictures of both systems when you get them going. Is the weather in Montana going to be a problem for you this time of year?

No way that I will be setting up either system until mid-spring. I don't think I could find a pump to push 0 degree F nutrient thru the pipes!! I expect to be starting seeds towards the end of April, and have them ready as the weather warms.

Currently I have 2 systems set up in my work room....an 8 bucket Dutch drip system (currently ending a cycle with just one broccoli and some chard left) and a 2x4 flood/drain system that I'm now starting seeds for.

No I wouldn't expect so, and nutrient that cold wouldn't be good for the plants either. Though there are ways to keep the nutrients warm like insulating the nutrient tank, using fish tank warmers, heated blankets and such. For the pipes a layer or two of pipe insulation along with pumping the warm nutrient through it regularly would probably be enough to keep the pipes and roots from freezing (though I have not dealt with growing in weather that cold). I think you were going to be growing the plants on your deck so I wasn't sure if the deck was enclosed to keep most of the heat out and/or if you were planing to use heaters to keep the plants warm. Do you have any pictures of the setups in your work room?

I don't have any pics yet, but I will charge up the batteries and take some today. By the way, it's snowing a little bit this morning......

Here are some shots of my various setups;
** Aerogarden with extra lites with cherry tomatoes
** Couple shots of my seedling process
** The flood system, ready to go, just waiting for seedlings
** The Dutch drip system, mostly finished, just waiting for the last broccoli to get big enough.

That's quite a few plants. I don't have anywhere indoors that I can grow except for the garage, and that gets much hotter than outside during the summer. Also I don't have the money for lights, nor can I justify buying them to grow inside just 4 months a year. Especially when we get over 300 days of sun a year, but I hope to have a claimant controlled greenhouse in a year or two.

I found your pic GpsFrontier. I see the electrical sealed against the end cap, this is the limiter so it doesn't overflow correct? Is the pipe below it the return and then the fill line is at the other end? Thanks.

Actually it's the other way around,

I have the through holes that I get in the electrical department on both ends of the tube, but they don't limit anything (except the size of the hole). The one that has the white P.V.C. tubing that runs up and down and directly into the reservoir is the overflow. I simply stuck a piece of clear 5/8 inch vinyl tubing in the P.V.C. "T" and then stuck it onto the through hole. The key is the placement of the hole in the end cap, so the water level does not rise above where the hole is located. I tested the system and marked it before I glued the end caps in in place. This system is a flood and drain type system. When the pump shuts off the nutrient solution simply drains back into the reservoir through the inlet.

The one on the other side that runs horizontal is the water inlet. Again the through hole does not limit anything it just lets the water pass through it and provides a watertight seal. The pump itself has an adjustment that is set at low because it's a powerful pump. The corner is made using just a few small pieces of different sized vinyl tubing and a couple of P.V.C. connectors to connect the vinyl tubing to the P.V.C.. The black is just paint that covers regular 1/2 in P.V.C. tubing to light proof it. I could have just used a long piece of vinyl tubing instead of the 1/2 inch P.V.C. tubing, but it's cheaper and I already had it anyway.

Here are the other pictures

GpsFrontier ,
Nice work, looks great!

I feel like I am getting up to speed. Thanks very, very much. Hopefully I may be able to answer questions in the future, not only ask.

Makes great sense, a question though. There are a number of different ways you could start the dormant strawberries.

1. Plant them in the net basket with the cocoa chips, place them in the tube and run it as an ebb and flow. This would require the chips to wick the solution throughout the basket because like you said only the lower corner would be in the solution. Do you think this would be enough to get them going?

2. Start them in rockwool and after a couple of weeks, move them into baskets with chips and into the tube using ebb and flow. If one did it this way would they continue in the ebb and flow mode or would they switch to NFT after the roots are developed and hanging down from the net basket

3. Or, would you do it completely differently, please digress.

I bought an air stone today. It was a big sucker, it you beaned someone with it they might not get up for a while. When I hooked it up to my GH air pump, which is pushing air for my drip system it really didn't do shit. When I turned closed the stop cocks on 3 of the 4 outputs it did a great job. Gee, spend more money.

I experienced they same root situation with older nursery plants, just couldn't get off that much of the dirt without tearing up the plant. If I was able to buy younger plants in the six packs, the majority of the dirt washed off.


Thanks for the bleach tip on taking the plants out before. This I did know but it still made me crack up.:) I'm in the healthcare field so I know 10% sodium hypochlorite would slaughter the plants. I do hope it saves someone the bad day it would be should they bleach their crop.

I want to attempt strawberries, but I ant to do it in a stacked drip system usig either vermiculite or perilite as the substrate. I've seen similar systems like this and want to do a setup in my greenhouse.

As for the Bleach info, I know some people try things word for word, and I sure would hate for someone to kill off their grow because of something obvious that I forgot to mention. ;-0

Yes, they would grow just fine that way. Though the strawberry system will take approximately 30-40 gallons to flood all 8 chambers and have enough left in the reservoir so the pump does not run dry, and to me that would be a waist of nutrients for plants that are not ready to plant yet.
This is probably most common, and would work. But for better or worse I will probably go another route.
Well, this is really a matter of preference and up to the grower, and what they are comfortable with. Running it as a N.F.T. would use half the nutrients compared to flooding it, but I think I will be able to keep them better fed using it as a flood and drain. But I have the flexibility to change it when ever I want and I can also play with the flooding cycle and drain height and do some trial and error to find the best combination to run it at.
Well, I will probably just use flat trays about 2 inches deep filed with potting soil to bring the dormant strawberry plants back to life. Then just gently wash off the roots before transplanting into the baskets with coco chips. But that's just my preference.
Ya, the pump can only put out as much air as it was designed for. So you can have as many stones as you want but it is still the same amount of air, just split between how ever many stones you are using.

This type of stacked system is quite popular and seems to work well also. I attached a few pictures of strawberry's growing this way.

Just for the heck of it I also attached some pictures of a vertical tube that I can only assume is an Aeroponic system. I want to try growing something in this as well. I also attached a picture of a Aframe Aeroponic system growing lettuce that I hope to try soon. There is also a picture of some pompkins growing on a a frame support with the plants growing in a trough. To be honest I don't even know if this is a hydroponic system, but I want to design one like it for growing melons. Probably a drip system.

I've seen a little different setup for the strawberries, but I'm sure it's the same technique, and they were stacked higher.
I've seen some plans for that vertical tube, and it's done either with misting spray emitters inside, or some with drip feeders on the outside.
Personally, I like to see things working.
As for the trough...I think what makes it 'ponics is that it uses a soiless substrate and there is constant movement of nutrients from one end to the other, back into nutrient tank.
I've also though about setting up a trough grow, but I want my trough elevated at the top of a trellis and have the plants grow across a horizontal trellis and down one side (sun facing side). Then have my lettuce setup underneath all that to provide shade and cooling for the hot months.

It would seem to me much easier (and better) designed as a areoponics with the misters/emitters inside the tube. As for me I would have a single P.V.C. pipe straight down the center with the misters/emitters screwed into it. That way if there ever was a problem with the misters/emitters all I need to do is pull the emitter tube out of the top and replace it with a fresh one, making maintenance easy. Then have a return line at the bottom back to the reservoir. Also I would have many more ports for the plants taking advantage of all the open space, and using a 8 or 10 inch tube.

I also would love to see it in action, but I live in AZ and the pictures were taken in Florida at Epcot Center (I believe). I have a file of hundreds of hydroponic images I saved, but don't have much information on them. I save them because they give me inspiration and ideas on different system setups. I have seen many images at Epcot Center and I am sure that is where these were taken even though there was no caption to the pictures.
Yes, Growing without soil is the definition of hydroponics. I just am not sure if the picture is actually a hydroponic system because I cant tell what's in the troughs, and if it's soil or not from the picture. There is a line near the back, like for a drip system. But that doesn't mean they don't just have soil in it and using a water drip irrigation system to water it. Again the images didn't come with captions.
That's actually a good idea I hadn't thought of. It also would be a space saver.

These plants are 3 weeks old now so I thought I would post an update. The plants started to grow quickly. So I had to make a temporary support because they are climbing plants. The wood frame is supposed to be temporary, until I am able to get the P.V.C. tubing to make the one I have planed. It will be similar to the one I built for the tomato's.

The system is using 8 gallons of nutrient solution. I had the same nutrients in the system for all 3 weeks. The first 2 weeks were at half strength because they were very small plants. After 2 weeks I added 4 tsp (20mL) of each to the reservoir. Now I just changed the nutrients to a full strength 2 tsp (10mL) of each and plan to run it for 2 weeks.

P.S. The white buckets on the wall are for the Squash plants I have planed to grow as a drip system using this same reservoir, making it a combination flood and drain and drip system. It will have 3 plants, I just took one of the buckets down to take some pictures inside. The wood 2x4 will have the one way flow valve attached to it to hold it in place.

Looks good, wont be long before you won't be able to pull those net cups out all the way there will be so many roots. Roots like nice and healthy.
As they get bigger, you might want to think about have a large amount of nutrient in your resevior because it'll start sucking up fluids like crazy and you don't want it to get to low before you can replenish the used amount of water.
When I had my first NFT, I had some days it was using 8 or more gallons in 24 hours

Nice looking system GpsFrontier.

You know...I see alot of designs using a setup similar to this (be it ebb and flood, nft or what have you), and I'm always curious about root management. Having experience with these types of systems, how to you manage that, if at all?

I mean, I'd think the roots could very quickly get out of hand in a small-ish tube like that, especially if the plant was something intended to be kept for a longer term. Do you perform any sort of root maintenance or simply just let them go? If it's the later, do you eventually end up encountering any issues at all with the tube clogging up or anything?

That's a good question, and for me it always comes down to the type of plant you are growing. Especially the size of the full grown plant that makes the most difference to me, because that will tell me how much support the plant will need as well as give me an Idea of the size of the root system. With hydroponics, the roots don't need to fan out to search for the nutrients they need because you are bringing the nutrients directly to the roots. Even so the roots seem to continue to do what they do best and keep growing. The type of system I eventually go with also is determined by how many plants I plan to grow, which also helps determine the type of growing medium I use, and of coarse the availability and price of materials I can get.

To be honest this is the first tube system that I have built, in retrospect I wish that I had made a few access openings (I still can, and plan to). I fully expected that the roots would intertwine with the other plants and keep me from pulling out the baskets. Though as I see the roots growing I have thought about the possibility of the system clogging with roots growing into the inlet and overflow ports, as well as the root mass interfering with the flow of nutrients from one side of the tube to the other. I plan to make access points on both ends to clear the inlet and overflow ports and possibly a few along the tube to clear any clogs there. Plants are generally pretty forgiving and don't mind root trimmings (like a haircut). I will just half to see how the rest goes.

The roots would most defiantly be a problem in this confined space for long term plants, though these plants are generally seasonal and I don't plan to have them in there much more than 6 months or so. Which is one of the reasons that I felt this design would work well for my purpose. For longer term plants I probably would have gone with a bucket drip system.

Yes, I will need to do that as they get bigger. My broccoli plants are reaching full size and they are taking up 1-2 gallons almost daily now. It's not even warm weather wise, so it cant be evaporating. I originally thought that the drain holes were clogging, that did happen once to one of them. I just took the hose off and poked a small screwdriver around in it and it came pouring out. But as the water seemed to be disappearing I kept checking all the drain holes but with no problems I came to the conclusion that the plants were drinking it up. I have add 2 extra gallons of nutrient to it (8 gallons total now) and add at least one gallon of fresh water a day.

What I would do is mark my full level, and replenish to that level each night and use gallon bottles to replenish so I could monitor the amount being used.
For smaller indoor setups, I would keep track, if I had a 20 gallon res. setup, I would fully replace the nutrients every 2 weeks OR if I added a total of 20 gallons to the res. to keep it level. Which ever came first.
Plus...get a TDS meter, it'll let you know how much of your nutrients are used. Mark your starting number, and check it each time you top off your res.

That's good advice. It's also exactly what I do. I have marked the inside of all my reservoirs with a permanent marker, including how many gallons the mark is, so I wont forget. That way I can replace the water without diluting the solution by adding too much, also so I know when to add more water so it doesn't become too concentrated because the water was used up or evaporated.
That would certainly let you know how fast they were being used up, but so far I haven't been able to afford a TDS or PPM meter. These plants are still young and aren't taking up much nutrients in relation to the amount of nutrient solution I have for the system. That's mainly why I let it go for 3 weeks before the first change. This set of nutrients I will let go only 2 weeks and the next one, but after that I will probably be changing it every week depending on how big they are. I mark the calender every time I change them to keep track. I can tell by the color of the plants pretty well if they are not getting enough nutrients, also I notice a slowdown in growth. I have also noticed that the nutrient solution gets lighter in color as the nutrients are being used up, I don't know if it's that way with all brands of nutrients but just something I have been observing. Especially with the broccoli plants now that they are almost full size, I think they are heavy feeders.

It has been warming up the last few weeks and these plants have been making some progress, so I thought I would post updated pictures. Can you tell I like to take pictures?

As you can see the 4 green been plants in the center are not doing well. these are the second batch of green beans I started with the same results. I can only assume it's because of the cold weather. I simply ran out of money to complete everything I wanted to do with this system. I was going to build a P.V.C. trellis similar to the one I have for the tomato's, then drape the plastic drop cloth over it. And on both sides I was going to have a P.V.C. tube run across the bottom attached to the plastic drop cloth so I can roll it up during the day.

You can see the round vertical 6 inch wide P.V.C. tubes underneath the system, these to are just prototypes and not the finished design. These are the heat source for warming at night. They will be made of metal heating and AC ducting so they wont catch fire. Inside these tubes will be a small adjustable flame (not sure where I will get the burners yet). It will basicly be heavy enough that wind wont blow them over, and with enough metal around it so it will be wind proof while allowing the heat to rise. Although now that it's starting to warm up I will probably not complete these heating units until next winter. The wood trellis structure that was meant to be temporary is now permanent because the plants are attached to the line that is strung across, I will still need to make it taller and/or build the P.V.C. trellis around it.

I also had a water proof heating pad inside the nutrient solution to keep them from getting to cold at night, but there must have been a pin hole in the plastic cover and water got in it. It was still working, but I decided to take it apart and use the heating elements inside to create my own fish tank warmer. Good idea, but I made a mistake in replacing some of the wire. It was not regular wire, and shorted the elements out. Oh well it was only $1, but now I need another one and have not been able to make it back the thrift stores to find another one.

At this point I decided to replace the green beans with more peas and snow peas. The taller plants are the snow peas and the shorter ones are the regular peas. I will just put 2 more of each in the system to make it a total of 6 each.

As far as root maintenance, I found that I don't need to cut any access holes near the inlet and overflow ports. I simply can disconnect them from the outside when no water is flowing through it, and do any trimming from there. It only goes through about 2 inches, and I can just poke them back in with a stick or something (once a week, if that so far). I may need to create the access ports along the top near the center of the tube in the future, but so far root maintenance there is not a problem.

Well it has been about a month sense my last update on my pea plants, and they have grown quite a bit (looking at my last pictures). I now have lots of pea pods on both the regular and snow pea plants, with lots more of flowers. The pods can be hard to see because they are the same color as the leaves and stems, but the more I look the more I find.

great looking plants!

How much of a pump do you need for this system? I like what you have done, great work!

Any of my pumps will work for this system. It's only actually pumping 1 to 2 feet up at most (pump ratings call that the "head height"). The tube holds about 5 gallons when filled. About 1 and 1/2 gallons stays in the tube when drained. The pump I am using is actually way to strong for the system. It will fill the system faster than the overflow can drain it, so it will overflow out of the top if I didn't adjust it. The pump inlet is set at a low setting but I still need to do more to reduce the flow. I took a "T" connector and put it inline with the feeding line, then connected a small piece of tubing to the middle horizontal connection. This splits the feeding line into two lines but only one end goes to the plants the other end stays in the reservoir.

I have a qusetion, What size netpot did you use? Is it 3 3/4? What size hole did you drill?

I used 3" net pots (pictures attached). I bought a 100 pack a couple of years ago when I was in Las Vegas. If I remember correctly they were about $25 for the 100 pack. That would make them about $0.25 a piece.
Well, I didn't use a hole saw. I drilled them freehand with a rotary tool I already had (pictures attached). It wasn't as hard as it sounds. I first needed a template for the hole size. I traced the top of the basket onto the thin plastic lid of a margarine tub, cut it out. Then trimmed it down until it just barely fit into the top of the basket, that way I knew it would be slightly smaller than the baskets so the baskets wouldn't fall through the holes. I drew a straight line, straight down the side of the tube. All the holes would be centered on this line. This is important to the water level in the tube because it will begin to overflow out the lowest point, if one hole was lower than the other it will overflow at that point. The line insures that all the holes would be level and in line with all the rest.

Then I measured the length of the tube, subtracted 4 inches for each side (2" for the end caps, and 2" for the end spacing), then divided that by 12 (amount of pots I wanted). This would give me the spacing between pots. Because the template was a thin plastic it easily bends around the tube, making it easy to trace on the tube. I put a mark on one end at 4 inches (2" for the end caps, and 2" for the end spacing), then centered the template on the long line with the edge of it at the 4" mark. Then traced the template on the tube, and put an "x" in the center of the outline, on the long line. That was my starting point, from there I made 11 more "x's" along the line at the pre-determined spacing that I figured out earlier. I eye-balled the centering of the template on the "x," but it would probably be better to place a hole in the center of the template, so it would be easier to line up with the "x" on the tube.

Once I had all my holes drawn on the tube I used the rotary tool to cut them out. It cuts through the ADS tubing very easily. Sounds like a long process but it was actually easy. Using another person to hold the tube and tape measure so I could get a straight line the whole process took about 30 min.

P.S. Measure twice, cut once.

Thats a good idea and much cheaper than a hole saw. I just bought a 3 5\8 one and they are pretty pricey. I plan to make a few more so I guess I will get my moneys worth out of it.

Very nice work. Whay type of nutrients are you using?

Thanks

Thanks,
I was was using General Hydroponics Flora series nutrients on those plants.

Great job
 

Wow, it must be so exciting to see the flowers and beans!:)

I also want to start similar work but not now, still too much to learn in hydroponics ... :p

Hi GpsFrontier, that's a very efficient system you've built. :D

I do have a question for you. How will you keep rain from getting into the top of the net baskets and diluting your nutrient solution? :eek:

I live in Florida, where it rains quite a bit. This would be a real concern for me. I have no idea how much rain you get where you live. :confused:

Hello NorEastFla,
We don't get nearly the amount of rain that you do, I live in the AZ. desert. That system was up and running last winter/spring when we get most of our rain for the year. The rest we get in late summer during the monsoons. But I never had any issues of that system flooding or overflowing. I changed reservoirs (to a larger one) in spring when the plants started to grow rapidly because of the warmer weather. The first reservoir held up to 10 gallons, the later one held up to 18 gallons. I never measured how much water got in the system, some did. But between the little amount that did, and how much the plants drink daily, I didn't have a problem with that even if it rained for 3 days.

But in your case you will get much more rain than me. In witch case if it becomes a problem I have a simple answer for that. I would just use plastic lids, like from empty margarine, butter, sour cream etc. containers ,as long as it is larger than the baskets. Cut holes in the center of them large enough for the stem of the plant to grow and and not grow into the lid. Then cut a slit down one side so it's easy to slip on and off when needed. And in cases of high winds, a zip-lock bag with some sand in it tucked around the stem on top of the plastic lids should keep it snugly in place. Not that it would fly off, but the edge of the plastic lid can cut into the stem if it moves around a lot. As for the reservoir, I would just place it underneath a table or something to keep water off the lid and draining through the cut-outs.

Hey GpsFrontier, your idea is good, but I think I'll try something like in my attached sketch. The plant stem would be trained over and under 1/2" PVC into a drip loop with a "roof" over the pipe and basket.

This will be easy to build. After I have one up and running, using your idea with the ebb and flow pipe, I'll post it into a thread I'll start.

I really like your pipe idea.

Well, I guess I'll jump right in here (in the middle of an old thread) and say thanks, this was a VERY informative thread and has given me a ton of ideas!:D