Root color
 

I growing in a GH Aero unit. The roots start of white but when I check them 2-3 weeks later after they are developed and in the water at the bottom they are brown. The plant seems healthy, is this normal for the roots?

I don't know what plants you are growing, but to the best of my knowledge there are no plants that should normally have brown roots. I had a problem with the roots of my strawberry plants turning brown last summer also (see attached pictures). I E-mailed General Hydroponics ([email protected]) the pictures and they said it looked like the nutrient solution was two warm. It should be between 68 and 72 degrees consistently. I don't know for sure that this is your problem, but it's the first thing I would look at.

My strawberry plants also looked healthy but were not growing as fast as they were. I started adding ice to the nutrient solution to cool it down and the roots started growing back white and healthy again in about a week (also in attached pictures). Another side affect is the flowers will start to turn yellow and fall off. This is a survival instinct by the plant because it takes more energy to produce the fruit.

Thanks for your reply. Temperature was a big problem this past summer but not now. My brown is different than your brown. I'll post a pic tomorrow.
Art

OK, if nutrient temp is not an issue, I would suspect the nutrients themselves.

1. What type of nutrients are you using?
2. Is the system a N.F.T.system?
3. How often do you change the nutrients?
4. Are you using an air pump and air stone to aerate the nutrients?
5. Do you check the pH every day, and what is the pH level?
6. What plants are you growing?
7. How old are the plants?
8. Have you flushed the system with FloraKleen to get rid of the accumulated fertilizer salts?
9. Is there a lot of algae growing in the system?

Thanks for your detailed reply, I had to get pic's also.

OK, if nutrient temp is not an issue, I would suspect the nutrients themselves.

1. What type of nutrients are you using? Gen Hydro dry grow only
2. Is the system a N.F.T.system? GH aeroponic 36
3. How often do you change the nutrients? Every 2-3 weeks, 45 gal in system.
4. Are you using an air pump and air stone to aerate the nutrients? No, should I, I have air pumps laying around.
5. Do you check the pH every day, and what is the pH level? Yes, pH 6.5 although it may range from 6 to 7. The EC of the solution is 1.6, 1120 ppm (Hanna 9813-6 meter calibrated regularly for pH and EC).
6. What plants are you growing?Lettace, broccoli, brussel sprouts, basil, arugula
7. How old are the plants? The brown one in the picture is old arugula, I think the problem is that it is old and the roots were in water that was too deep. In the pic of the newer plant the roots are white.
8. Have you flushed the system with FloraKleen to get rid of the accumulated fertilizer salts? No I haven't. I assume this doesn't apply to quick lettace crops but would be a good thing for the brussel sprouts and broccoli and artichoke over their 60-90 day growing period. How often should I flush the system and how many gallons should I make and how long should I run it before I drain it and mix up another 50 gallon nutrient solution as the crops mature?
9. Is there a lot of algae growing in the system?No

I just added an aquarium heater to the solution to keep the temp at 70 degrees, is this an ideal temp. I am in So. Calif.

This has turned into a big question, thanks so much for your help!
Art

I tried to attach jpegs, I couldn't tell if they made it as I composed this. I attached them through "Attach Files" and hit the upload button.

Pic's for last post
 

Trying pics again, smaller file size. Root photos (2) and 3 general of unit

Bigger Pic's
 

Bigger Pic's

I am not exactly familiar with GH's line of dry nutrients but I only found one that they carry (FLORAMATO DRY)
I think this is what you have AeroFlo 36 Aeroponic System If it is a true aeroponic system, it uses misters/emitters to spray the roots. This could be a source of problems also, like uneven watering as the misters/emitters can clog. Also because the roots are hanging in mid air they are much more susceptible to drying out if not watered frequently.
36 plants in the system and 45 gallons feeding them, I don't think 2-3 weeks would be a problem. Though if it is a true aeroponic system, it should be able to run with less than half that in the reservoir just fine. My concern with letting it go 3 weeks between changes here is it gives time for unwanted things like algae to grow, both in the reservoir and growing chambers. It is kind of hard to tell from the pictures, but the brown looks to be something that is covering the roots instead of the roots themselves. As I look at the picture of the basket with the long strand of brown roots, it looks like the basket itself is the same color of brown, leading me to believe it's something like a brown algae that is covering all of it.Yes, it's a good idea to use them. It does two things, first as the bubbles rise to the top of the nutrient solution it picks up oxygen molecules from the bubbles. Second it keeps the water moving (like a flowing stream) and inhibits algae growth. You may also want to consider using Hydrogen Peroxide added to the solution. Hydrogen Peroxide is nothing more than purified water with added oxygen molecules, though you don't want to use more than 1 teaspoon of 3% per gallon of water.

Hydrogen Peroxide also kills bacteria in the water (good and bad ones) but as long as you don't use too much it can be beneficial. I use about half a teaspoon per gallon every week myself. Some people say that some hydrogen peroxides like the kind found in the pharmacy has stabilizers in it, and suggest that you use a 35% hydrogen peroxide instead. But my experience is to just read the label for the active and inactive ingredients and if it has anything more than Hydrogen Peroxide for the active ingredients and purified water for the inactive ingredients don't use it. I just use the 3% from Wal-mart myself. If you can find the 35% it will be 10 times the price but in effect you use 10 times less. I can give you a link to a chart if you need it.I haven't checked the requirements for your plants but this might be a little high. The top end for broccoli is generally 6.5, though growing conditions play a part in the plants individual requirements, even for the same plant. I personally don't have a EC/PPM or a TDS meter but here is a link to charts for Plant Requirements for Fruit, Vegetables, Herbs and Flowers.This has me a bit confused because if the roots are sitting in water it is not a true areoponic system. It might be a combination aeroponic system and another type. But if the roots are sitting in water, the water needs to be moving. Either by a air pump directly at the roots (like a Water Culture Systems) or a water pump that continusly keeps the water flowing (like a N.F.T. type system) I don't think that this would directly cause the problem, but the accumulated fertilizer salts can build up on the roots and growing medium and cause a nutrient imbalance. FLORA KLEEN Salt Clearing SolutionThey recommend at every nutrient change with a stronger solution as the plants mature.Well What I do is, when it's time to change nutrients, I dump the old nutrients. Take apart the pump and thoroughly clean it. Then clean the reservoir with soap and water and rinse it thoroughly. Put it all back together again, fill the system with the minimum amount of water (just water) it takes to run the system and not run the pump dry. Then add 1-2 teaspoons of FloraKleen per gallon, and let run for about 2 continuous hours. Then dump it out, rinse the reservoir and fill with fresh nutrients. This will also help keep the misters/emitters from building up the salts and clogging in an aeroponic system.Yes, that's just fine if that is the actual temp of the nutrients, it's right in the middle of 68-72 degrees. I need to get some aquarium heaters also because the night time temps are getting into the upper 40's now. The only aquarium heaters I have found that go that low are the ones with an adjustable thermostat, and run about $20. The cheaper ones have a fixed temp of 78 degrees and run about $15. I have 3 hydro systems running right now, with more planed. That can get quite expensive, so I am looking at other alternatives also.

I am no expert, but if it's some kind of brown algae growing on the roots like I suspect, I would take out all the plants and gently wash them off best as I could. Then scrub the growing chambers out with soap and water and rinse. Then flush the pump hose and clean the pump. Scrub the reservoir with soap and water rinse thoroughly. Put it all back together and fill with just plain water and run 20 min (2-3 times). Then flush with FloraKleen if you have it, if not don't wait to clean the system. Then dump and replace with fresh nutrients. Because You are using General Hydroponics nutrients and hydro system, you can also e-mail there tech support with the pictures at: [email protected] or call them at (1-800-374-9376) or 1-707-824-9376.

Quote:
Gen Hydro dry grow only
I am not exactly familiar with GH's line of dry nutrients but I only found one that they carry (FLORAMATO DRY)
IT IS CALLED MAXIGROW

Quote:
GH aeroponic 36
I think this is what you have AeroFlo 36 Aeroponic System If it is a true aeroponic system, it uses misters/emitters to spray the roots. This could be a source of problems also, like uneven watering as the misters/emitters can clog. Also because the roots are hanging in mid air they are much more susceptible to drying out if not watered frequently.
IT IS A HYBRID SYSTEM. THERE IS A DRAIN TUBE YOU PULL UP INSIDE THE CHAMBER IN THE BEGINNING TO KEEP THE ROOTS WET INSIDE THEIR BASKET FILLED WITH HYDROTON. WHEN THE ROOTS START COMING THROUGH THE BASKET YOU PUSH THE TUBE DOWN TO LOWER THE WATER LEVEL AND THE LASER CUT LINE FUNCTIONS MORE AS A MISTER. NOW THAT I HAVE HAD THE SYSTEM FOR A WHILE AND HAVE OBSERVED IT, IT REALLY DOESN'T SPRAY VERY WELL ESPECIALLY AT THE END OF EACH CHAMBER. I WOULD BE BETTER OFF TO FIGURE HOW TO PUNCH A HOLE IN THE LASER CUT LINE AND TRY INSTALLING AN EMITTER/MISTER. THE RESULT WOULD BE FAR SUPERIOR. DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE EMITTER/MISTER?
Quote:
Every 2-3 weeks, 45 gal in system
36 plants in the system and 45 gallons feeding them, I don't think 2-3 weeks would be a problem. Though if it is a true aeroponic system, it should be able to run with less than half that in the reservoir just fine. My concern with letting it go 3 weeks between changes here is it gives time for unwanted things like algae to grow, both in the reservoir and growing chambers. It is kind of hard to tell from the pictures, but the brown looks to be something that is covering the roots instead of the roots themselves. As I look at the picture of the basket with the long strand of brown roots, it looks like the basket itself is the same color of brown, leading me to believe it's something like a brown algae that is covering all of it.
CHECKED THE BASKET FOR ALGAE AND IT IS NOT. I THINK IT WAS JUST ROOTS THAT WERE WATER EXPOSED FOR TOO LONG. OUT OF CURIOSITY, WHAT COLOR ARE THE ROOTS IN AN NFT SYSTEM SINCE PART OF THEM ARE IN WATER ALL THEY TIME?
Quote:
Are you using an air pump and air stone to aerate the nutrients? No, should I, I have air pumps laying around.
Yes, it's a good idea to use them. It does two things, first as the bubbles rise to the top of the nutrient solution it picks up oxygen molecules from the bubbles. Second it keeps the water moving (like a flowing stream) and inhibits algae growth. You may also want to consider using Hydrogen Peroxide added to the solution. Hydrogen Peroxide is nothing more than purified water with added oxygen molecules, though you don't want to use more than 1 teaspoon of 3% per gallon of water.
I WILL ADD THE AIR STONES. HOW MANY DOES ONE NEED? ARE THEY THE SMALL ONES OR THE LONG KIND (8 IN+). HOW MANY SHOULD I HAVE FOR THE SUMMER TIME?

Hydrogen Peroxide also kills bacteria in the water (good and bad ones) but as long as you don't use too much it can be beneficial. I use about half a teaspoon per gallon every week myself. Some people say that some hydrogen peroxides like the kind found in the pharmacy has stabilizers in it, and suggest that you use a 35% hydrogen peroxide instead. But my experience is to just read the label for the active and inactive ingredients and if it has anything more than Hydrogen Peroxide for the active ingredients and purified water for the inactive ingredients don't use it. I just use the 3% from Wal-mart myself. If you can find the 35% it will be 10 times the price but in effect you use 10 times less. I can give you a link to a chart if you need it.
I AM USING BOTANICARE PUREBLEND PRO IN MY SECOND SYSTEM AND THEY SAY NOT TO USE H2O2 AS IT WILL KILL BENEFICIALS. I WILL CONTACT GENHYDRO REGARDING ITS USE WITH ITS MAXIGRO. I AM ALSO USING SM 90 IN BOTH SYSTEMS. DO YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS PRODUCT?
Quote:
Yes, pH 6.5 although it may range from 6 to 7.
I haven't checked the requirements for your plants but this might be a little high. The top end for broccoli is generally 6.5, though growing conditions play a part in the plants individual requirements, even for the same plant. I personally don't have a EC/PPM or a TDS meter but here is a link to charts for Plant Requirements for Fruit, Vegetables, Herbs and Flowers.
Quote:
How old are the plants? The brown one in the picture is old arugula, I think the problem is that it is old and the roots were in water that was too deep.
This has me a bit confused because if the roots are sitting in water it is not a true areoponic system. It might be a combination aeroponic system and another type. But if the roots are sitting in water, the water needs to be moving. Either by a air pump directly at the roots (like a Water Culture Systems) or a water pump that continusly keeps the water flowing (like a N.F.T. type system)
IT IS SORT OF A HYDRID SYSTEM AND THE WATER IS CONSTANTLY MOVING.
Quote:
Have you flushed the system with FloraKleen to get rid of the accumulated fertilizer salts? No I haven't.
I don't think that this would directly cause the problem, but the accumulated fertilizer salts can build up on the roots and growing medium and cause a nutrient imbalance. FLORA KLEEN Salt Clearing Solution
Quote:
How often should I flush the system
They recommend at every nutrient change with a stronger solution as the plants mature.
Quote:
and how many gallons should I make and how long should I run it
Well What I do is, when it's time to change nutrients, I dump the old nutrients. Take apart the pump and thoroughly clean it. Then clean the reservoir with soap and water and rinse it thoroughly. Put it all back together again, fill the system with the minimum amount of water (just water) it takes to run the system and not run the pump dry. Then add 1-2 teaspoons of FloraKleen per gallon, and let run for about 2 continuous hours. Then dump it out, rinse the reservoir and fill with fresh nutrients. This will also help keep the misters/emitters from building up the salts and clogging in an aeroponic system.
THE SM 90 IS SUPPOSE TO HELP WITH BREAKING SURFACE TENSION AND HELPING TO KEEP EMITTERS CLEAN. THE FLORA KLEEN IS DESIGNED FOR THE SALT BUILDUP AS YOU SAID SO I WILL START USING IT, THANKS.
Quote:
I just added an aquarium heater to the solution to keep the temp at 70 degrees, is this an ideal temp.
Yes, that's just fine if that is the actual temp of the nutrients, it's right in the middle of 68-72 degrees. I need to get some aquarium heaters also because the night time temps are getting into the upper 40's now. The only aquarium heaters I have found that go that low are the ones with an adjustable thermostat, and run about $20. The cheaper ones have a fixed temp of 78 degrees and run about $15. I have 3 hydro systems running right now, with more planed. That can get quite expensive, so I am looking at other alternatives also.
I BOUGHT MY HEATER AT THE PET STORE. $34 FOR ONE WITH A WIDE RANGE OF ADJUSTABILITY, IT IS RATED AT 300 WATTS. LIKE YOU SAID THOUGH IT DOES COST MONEY TO RUN THEM. IT YOU COME UP WITH AN ALTERNATE SOURCE LET ME KNOW.

I am no expert, but if it's some kind of brown algae growing on the roots like I suspect, I would take out all the plants and gently wash them off best as I could. Then scrub the growing chambers out with soap and water and rinse. Then flush the pump hose and clean the pump. Scrub the reservoir with soap and water rinse thoroughly. Put it all back together and fill with just plain water and run 20 min (2-3 times). Then flush with FloraKleen if you have it, if not don't wait to clean the system. Then dump and replace with fresh nutrients. Because You are using General Hydroponics nutrients and hydro system, you can also e-mail there tech support with the pictures at: [email protected] or call them at (1-800-374-9376) or 1-707-824-9376.

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP, IT IS APPRECIATED!! I'LL KEEP YOU POSTED. ART

Not really, because I am not familiar with that tubing. I am planing to experiment with irrigation tubing. The type found at your local hardware store. Though I am not sure about the misters/emitters that they sell because as I understand it, the water droplets should be a certain size for aeroponics. The emitters/misters that are sold at Hydroponic stores are designed best for aeroponics, but I don't know if they will work well with the irrigation tubing yet. I do plan on doing some testing with both type of emitters/misters and comparing the results, but have not done so yet. The best I can suggest right now is to start over with new tubing and emitters/misters from the hydro shop. For a drip system the irrigation tubing at the hardware works fine and there is no need for emitters in a drip system. Just poke the holes where you need them. They also have laser cut tubing at the hardware store but I don't know if it is exactly the same thing as what's at the hydro store.

That,s strange, because the top rim of the baskets are a green color but the part that is below in the growing chamber is the same brown as the roots. Maybe what I am seeing is the roots covering the basket and looking that way. The roots of any healthy plant should be white no matter what type of system it's in. I asked what type of system it was in because I was hoping to find a cause for the problem. In an N.F.T. (Nutreint Film Technique) The roots hang in a continuously flowing film of nutrients and use the roots as a wick to suck the water/nutrients up to the plants. Not all plants do well in all types of systems. For instance plants that need good drainage wont do as well in a water culture system and are better off in a drip system, but water loving plants like lettuce do well in a water culture system. I'm not familiar with "arugula" and it may very well be a plant that needs good drainage. In which case using a air pump should help the situation, also lowering the overflow tube so they are not soaking in water also should help.
This really depends on what you can fit in your system and how much air your pump pumps out. Shape does not matter, though I wouldn't use the light round tubes rather the actual stones. The round tubes have clogged up on me and are so light that when air is pumped through them they float, so you need to weigh them down. The rule of thumb (for me at least) is the more the better. But keep in mind just because you add more stones does not mean that you are adding more oxygen. The pump is still putting out the same amount of air, just splitting it between however many stones you are using. I am sure you know but just in case, the air stones and pumps in the pet supply stores for aquariums work just fine.

The warmer the nutrient/water temp the less oxygen it can hold onto. So in general warmer means less oxygen in the solution and in my opinion you can never get too much oxygen to the roots.
I don't have any first hand experience with these products. I will need to do some research on them. Though if they recommend not to use the Hydrogen Peroxide with it there's probably a reason, and contacting General Hydroponics to find out the particulars would be best. As I mentioned it will kill both good and bad bacterias, but how that differs from the Flora series nutrients I use, I cant tell you. It looks to work fine with the flora series nutrients as long as you don't use too much. The moving water will help keep algae growth down but does not add any oxygen to it. I just asked because I was concerned about possible algae growth.
I am not familiar with this product and am not exactly sure how it's different from the FloraKleen. I just know that I had a problem with the salt buildup last summer and the FloraKleen was recommended to correct it because it dissolves these salts.The ones that I was looking at were at Walmart and I don't remember how many watts, but you may have a larger one for 45 gallons to heat. The ones I was referring to were designed up to 15 gallons. Though using the fixed one set at 78 degrees for 45 gallons instead of the recommended 15 may not get that hot, and might wind up being in the right range. In any case, I am more concerned with spending $20 each and needing 5 or 6 of them, including tax it would be somewhere like $130, not to mention the electricity. Though because the plants don't need to feed at night it wouldn't need to be on all night. Maybe just 1 hr or 1 1/2 hr to warm up, before it gets light and the pump turns on.

I have not got anything worked out yet but I am considering using a cheep electric heating blanket from a garage sale or thrift shop. Taking the coils out of it as a heating element. It's waterproof as long as you don't accidentally cut the coil taking it out. Also maybe just wrapping the blanket around the reservoir itself. I am quite sure I can get these for $3-$5 ea, it will take a little fine tuning but will be much cheaper. You probably would not need to do this because I think you only have 2 systems. I have 3 running right now with more planed. Including a 128 strawberry plant system I hope to have running by late January. Also 2 water culture systems that I want to get running as soon as I can get another air pump and get the seeds sprouted.

Good info in this post.
I would highly suggest a airpump, and Defusers in your reservoir, and in any hydroponic system if at all possible. With a closed system it might be the reason your plant roots are having issues.. because them being wet wet wet and the fluid isn't oxygenated much. You can grow plants in 100% fluid as done with a DWC system (Deep Water Culture), but it has to be aerated to get the needed Oxygen to the roots. None will result in root rot, and thats what it looks like your experiencing there.
IF it's not to late, I would also suggest the Hydrogen peroxide method mentioned above for trying to clear up the problem, but I personally wouldn't use it on a regular basis, but thats a personal choice. :D

Also, if you have your air defuser near your fishtank heater, it will help to distribute your heat throughout your resevior

roots cont.
 

Thanks for eveyones help. Just to bring this up to date.

-the baskets are literally 2 color, green on top and brown on the bottom. There is definitely no algae thank goodness.

-I cut off the brown roots and and new white ones are returning. They just turned brown for what ever reason.

-I will buy air stones tomorrow. They should be a nice help now and a huge help this coming summer.

-I will try to find some emitters to try in the laser line. As mentioned previously I'm sure there is an optimal water droplet size but at this point I am just looking to accomplish keeping the roots wet, wet, wet like suggested. I'll let you know if I find a good combination.

-This aeroponic system could be run as a deep water culture by keeping the water level high in the grow troughs and plenty of oxygen as you folks mentioned. The water level can also be lowered from full to about a 1/2 inch deep creating the aeroponic aspect and hence the name of the system. One of the drawbacks being though they the last sprayer hole or two in the laser cut line doesn't spray even close to the force or coverage the first 3 or 4 sprayer holes in the laser line do. Even if I find emitters to plug into the laser it will not be easy to break the system down as they will have to be pulled out of the line should I need to remove it for whatever reason. That said, I would not recommend this system because the troughs do not have lids and this makes it tough to clean and the laser cut sprays are not consistent, I did pull a line, clean and check it to make sure it wasn't clogged before I put it back together and observed it. They want big money for these troughs and there really is nothing to them.

I have been checking out CropKing systems. They have an NFT system where you can buy just the troughs, lids (easy to clean), spouted and not spouted end caps, plus a couple of other little items for a far cheaper price. I then plan on using the existing reservoir and pump. Of course being NFT there are no tiny emitters to deal with and water levels are of no concern as the nutrient solution just runs from on end to the drain on the other. Check out their website as they are a big ass company.

Art

Yes CropKing has been around for quite a few years, I still have one of there catalogs from 1999. Although as you noticed commercially made systems generally cost some coin. I have found that it is much easier and cheaper to build my own systems. I understand not everyone is comfortable doing that for whatever reason. Though if you understand the different systems, and what makes them work, you can build a system out of just about anything.

Example: I am planing to build a 128 plant system that I designed for strawberry's (pictures attached). I estimate it will cost less than $300 to build, including the plants (I wont be using seeds), growing medium, baskets, water pump, air pump, vinyl tubing, wood for the stand and all the rest of the parts. The picture shows a 64 plant system, I will be building two of these. I have a 32 gallon trash can I got at Walmart for $10 that I will be using for the reservoir for the both of them. It's designed as a flood and drain system but with one small change it's easily converted into a N.F.T. system.

I checked out the PDF for your GH Aero System.
I guess I'm confused as to what their trying to accomplish.
My First Hydro System I built was combination NFT with Mini Sprayers inside which I would guess is similar to this systems operation/goal.
If your sprayers are getting your roots wet, there really shouldn't be much of a need to soak the roots in a deep nutrient. Once the roots reach the bottom of the trough, you shouldn't have to worry about them being soaked.
I'll see if I can find the pictures of the one I built.
I'm still guessing that Oxygenation of your nutrient fluid might help.
Also, if you do have a problem with heat..that could be a problem also wit the root browning.
Also, I'm not sure, but I thought I read something that the system was designed to be grown/used under artificial lighting, which would suggest indoor use, where room temp. would be more likely controlled, suggesting to ME that you wouldn't have to worry about outside heat spikes in temps.
Oh, before I forget...
How were your plants started? From seed in a hydro-friendly medium?
Or Soil, then transplanted to your system?

Just thought I would mention that running it as a water culture would require the air stones be in the tubes with the roots. This so the bubbles can come in direct contact with the roots and would probably be a nightmare to maintain, especially with roots growing down into the stones and clogging them. Also, I agree that if the roots are getting the moisture they need there shouldn't be any need to be soaked. But maybe they knew there was a problem with the misting system and wanted to compensate for it.

Responding to posts.
 

I think GH had there own set of problems. It really isn't a true aero system because the sprays from the laserline don't effectively wet the baskets in the beginning, hence the need for flooding the tubes to wet the young plants and then having to slowly reduce the water level until the roots are dangling in the 1/2 in. of nutrient solution in the tube. It is a bit of a hassle and requires pretty much that all 6 holes must be planted at the same time. This problem is easily solved by the pictures you posted and my own experience today. I drilled a 1.5 in. hole for access next to the last plant basket opening in the tube. I then drilled a small hole in the laser line and installed a mister, the kind that has a spinner. It works great! Problem solved. I then saw the posted picture with the same 5x5 in. vinyl tube with the multiple spaghetti tubes in it. By the way, it is a fence post for vinyl fences available from HomeDepot but they aren't cheap, $40 plus end caps.

KevinL drilled holes between the baskets put in the spaghetti tubing off a poly tube and there is probably misters on the end. I think I will do this and abandon the laser line. I'll run one poly tube between 2 tubes and feed them both off it. I will use the the existing nutrient drains back into the reservoir. I will end up with an aeroponic system with the run off being essentially an NFT system. I guess this is the best of both world. This way the roots will be wetted (baskets misted) when first placed in the tubes and no roots have grown out the basket. I won't have to worry about water depth any more. Then as the roots grow and eventually grow out of the basket they will be sprayed and eventually dangle into the nutrient film as it flows downhill to the return and into the reservoir. There will be no need for air stones which would get clogged with roots in deep water culture. Also, won't the spraying action of the misters incorporate much more O2 into the solution and ultimately make the O2 question moot? Let me know.

With all of your inputs I must say thanks so much. I think with the changes outlined above my aero system will be working about as optimally as possible. If anyone has any other suggestions please let me know.

The plants in the system were bought at the local nursery, washed off as much dirt as possible and then planted them in the baskets with the Coco Tek liners and then finished filling with Hydroton. I was able to remove almost all of the dirt on real small plants and not so much on older plants. They are all thriving. I am now sprouting seeds and will move them into 1 in. rockwool cubes and into the 4 NFT channels I purchased from CropKing. They are relatively inexpensive. I haven't been able to piece together anything else that will do shallow NFT for any cheaper. If anyone else has let me know. I will use this system for green leafy veggies, I may try another veggie just for the heck of it.

I am interested in the strawberry system you are building GpsFrontier. What are you using for tubes and are you using the small baskets with liners and hydroton? Is your system going to be like the tube pictured with the polyline and spaghetti tubes and misters etc? You also said you won't be sprouting the strawberries, what/how/where are the plants coming from etc... Please let me know.

As an alternative to fence post tubing you can do what I did. You can use 4 inch ADS tubing, its usually found in the same isle as the P.V.C. It's actually irrigation tubing and looks just about the same as P.V.C., just bigger . Its also black on the inside so it is light proof cutting down on algae growth. I have 4 peas, 4 green beans and 4 sugar peas growing in one tube. It easy to cut just like P.V.C. is and is way cheaper. One tube is about $8 and the end caps were $1.97 ea. Except for the pump and reservoir I already had and the two stands that I made from 2x4's the whole thing cost me $20.

Link to my Pea and green bean system in this forum
Not really "IN" the solution but to the roots themselves. Although I would still use a air stone in the reservoir because it helps to circulate the water when the pump is off, and I don't believe the roots can ever get too much oxygen.
Along with the ADS tubing like my peas and green beans, another suggestion is using plastic rain gutters. Some have tops to keep leaves out that would be easy to take off and clean. Also using the down spouts, there not square, but lay it down sideways and make the holes along the top side. You can run the return many various ways depending on your setup.
The big question mark in the cost of the system is the tubing. I cant find 4 inch square tubing at Home depot or Lowe's but in my cost estimate I set aside $100 for the tubing. I will need 4, 10 or 12 foot tubes that I will cut in half to make 8. I have found a couple of places online to get it but I haven't been looking very much (too many other things to do). There are 2 pluming supply houses in town that I am going to check also. The square tubing is key to the design because as you can see it allows 2 rows of plants in the same tube (maximizing space and nutrients). I attached a picture of a commercial hydroponics farm using the same type system (its where I got the idea). Note: the plants are high enough to walk under making it easy to pick the berry's. Mine will be waist high though.

I will be using the same 3 inch baskets that I am using for the peas and green beans. I plan to use Coco chips for the growing medium, $10 for 2 cubic feet should be enough. The chips are big enough that I don't need liners.
No, it will be a flood and drain system (no misters). The through holes sticking out from the end caps will be the inlet and the one going out the bottom will be the return. I attached pictures of the through holes that I use. I get them in the electrical department at Home Depot, they run $1.97 each. Half inch vinyl tubing fits perfectly in the center of the through holes, so all I need to do to adjust the water height is use a longer or shorter piece of vinyl tubing. If I want to change it to a N.F.T. I'll just take out the vinyl tubing.

I don't want to wait for seeds to get big enough. The strawberry plants I had last summer I just got at Lowe's (6 packs) but they run about $3.50 a 6 pack, that would cost about $75. But I can order live plants online, 32 for about $12 and when you order larger quantity's it is usually cheaper. They are actually dormant but will be full size in about 2 weeks (much faster than seeds).

Root color continuation
 

I tried to make the post appear as yours does but I am not quite there yet. Please let me know how to make the portions of your messages look the way you make mine do in your replies.

So oxygen is being absorbed by the dangling roots and the nutrients being misted/sprayed are also being absorbed. In the aero system are these two processess independent of each other. The nutrients are not carrying the oxygen hence airstones in the reservoir do not in fact bring any additional oxygen to the table, their purpose, as you mentioned, keeps the solution moving? Sorry for such an involved question but you seem to be able to handle them with ease.

This is very cool. What is the container the strawberries are planted in? Is it something like 5in. vinyl tubing laying on a 45 degree angle with 2 1/2 in. holes drilled on the two upward facing sides.

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I am not quite clear on Home Depot parts and picture. Does the Depot part form a watertight seal? I also didn't quite see how changing the tube converted from a ebb and flow to NFT. I must be missing something. I think I lost some of your closeup pictures.

Do you have a link for the plants?

Are you running most of your veggies then as ebb and flow? How many times in a 12 hour period do you cycle the system?

Yes.
As the air bubbles rise to the top of the nutrient solution, the nutrient solution picks up oxygen molecules as the air bubbles pass through it. The roots in an areoponic system are breathing air directly because they are not completely submerged in solution. So in fact the roots would be getting oxygen two different ways.

As in the case with the hydrogen peroxide, it is nothing more than purifier water with an extra oxygen molecule, but it is still in liquid form because the extra oxygen molicules are attached to the water (H2O). Hydrogen peroxide is in fact H2O2 because it has 2 oxygen molecules instead of one. When using the air stones some of the water grabs onto these oxygen molecules passing through it, and then the plants can adsorb them directly from the water. But the roots will still be able to absorb the oxygen from the air that it is in direct contact with also, giving it 2 sources of oxygen.

As a side effect of the air bubbles rising, the water is actually moving. This helps keep the algae down because it cant grow very well in moving water. That helps keep your nutrients fresher longer.

I am not sure what you are referring to here. If you are referring to the picture of the strawberry's, I only have the image I found online. I don't know where it was taken. Though I am guessing it is a N.F.T. type system because most commercial systems are. Personally I took note of the square tubing, it may in fact be not be square tubing but say drain gutters on angle. But I was impressed with the way the plants are at an angle to allow two rows of plants in the same space as one if they were straight up instead. I will be using the square tubing to get the same effect.
The way the through hole works is, you cut a hole just slightly bigger than the threaded end in what ever you are using. Then place the O ring over the side with the threads. Then stick the the threaded end through the hole you made, and screw on the nut from the other side and tighten down. The O ring provides a water tight seal. I attached some pictures of anther project to give you an idea of what I mean. I haven't taken pictures of what I mean by inserting the 1/2 inch tubing but I will try to tomorrow.
I actually bought some before but I don't have the link right now, I will look it up later tonight.
I have 3 systems running right now and 2 are Ebb and flow, one is a drip. The systems I was running last summer were both ebb and flow as well. The ones I have planed for the future are ebb and flow, drip, water culture and I want to do a aframe aeroponic system probably for lettuce. I would also like to do a vertical tube aeroponic system also.
This varys depending on what type system I am using, what growing medium I am using in it as well as the temperature. Also on what the timer is capable of. The tomatoes are set at 30 on and 30 off all day and at night 30 on twice during the night. The others are using the same timer and the time ranges from 1 hr on to 1 1/2 hr on with no more than 1hr off at any time until dark. It goes on once at night from 11:30pm to 1:00 am. The goal is to make sure the roots never become dry.
First just highlight the text you wish to quote, then right click and click copy. At the top of where you type in the message there are 2 rows of icons, you are probably familiar with creating a link using them. The 3rd one from the far right bottom row is a pound sign (#). Just to the left of the # sign is a yellow icon. If you hover over it it will read "Wrap [Quote] tags around selected text",. Click on this and when the {QUOTE} {/QUOTE} appears in the message paste the text you highlighted in between them. Everything between these two tags will appear in the blue QUOTE box.

OK, here is the link to the page of strawberry's we ordered.

BloomingBulb.com

What we actually ordered was:
Strawberry Collection - Allstar, Ozark & Quinault 50111

We didn't wind up using them because at the time I didn't know that they were going to be dormant plants. Though I was wondering why the shipping was so cheep for live plants. They are actually the plants root ball, that is packed in sawdust like bulbs to ship. You plant the root ball and it grows back. It was almost summer here and I didn't want to wait for them to come back because it was already getting hot, and didn't know how long they had to live in our heat anyway. I only ordered them because they didn't have any at Lowe's, Home Depot or Walmart at the time. But after we ordered them they got some in at Lowe's. Then when I found out they were actually dormant plants we went back to Lowe's and got 5, 6 packs instead.

An example of the prices:

Strawberry Plants - Allstar - Junebearer
Item #20206
Quantity:......Each Price:........Sale Price:
10..................$0.55................$0.39
30...................$0.31...............$0.22
100.................$0.22................$0.15
500+...............$0.18................$0.13

You can also do a search for Live strawberry plants for sale and find more places to order them from. "Quinault" is supposed to be the biggest and sweetest of the different variety's and usually what they sell at the market.

I was referring to the picture of the growing strawberries. I thought it might be a 5 in. square tube, rotated 45 degrees onto one of the edges and then held in that position. Then 2 1/2 holes drilled on the two sides that are facing in the upward direction. The holes could be cut in a staggered fashion, one to the left and then one to the right and so on, say 4 to 6 inches apart. Then you should be able to mimic what the picture shows. Is this what you are describing for your future system? Because the square tube is not laying flat I would imagine NFT would not work so well because the roots would not be able to hang directly on the flat bottom but would hit the lower sides of the square tube and the nutrient solution would be running in the bottom V formed by the two downward facing sides of the square tube. I would think that ebb and flow would probably be best but it could only fill as high as the low point of the 2 1/2 in hole So maybe ebb and flow isn't so good after all. I like your idea of the staggered left/right plants. What is your idea around these problems?

It sounds like your timer is fairly sophisticated. It sounds like it has multiple receptacles and each can be set to a different schedule. If so please let me know the brand name and I'll check it out. Sounds like it solves the problem of needing multiple timers.

I reread your post and I think I finally understand the tube going through the electrical fitting and moving it up or down to changes the height obviously and hence the water level. You are mounting it in the "bottom of the tube", correct?

Couple things I just wanted to throw out there before I forget. LOL!

The Fence Post cover I bought and used on that NFTsystem was from fleet farm (not sure if there are any out by you) and it was I think 16 bucks for a 8 foot piece...not to bad, and it's thick enough it's light tight also. I wouldn't use it again, but it wasn't to bad cost wide.
I did have emitters on the ends of those small 1/4 hoses that go through the top, they both sprayed the younger plants as mentioned, and feed the NFT. There is a Name for this type of NFT system but I can't remember it.
I have been working on setting up a large scale lettuce NFT system with 200 placements, for this I used vinyl Rain Gutter Down Spouts and cut 2" holes in it for 2" net cups. It's a bit deeper then I'd like,and of course, once I got done drilling all the hose, I found shallower stock available. They were under 3 dollars for a 10' length.
Also, I wanted to add about the air diffusers in the reservoir...
1) it helps to pull gases to the top as in an aquarium,
2) while doing so it creates surface movement in the reservoir helping to get are into the fluid, again as in nature and aquariums, surface to air exposure is very important.
3) it bring fresh air into your reservoir and which if you have a more eclosed system, is a pretty good idea.

Something I remember also, and is also why I asked about them being started plants or bought. When I first set up that NFT I used store bought soil plants, rinsed them near to death to get as much soil off as I could.
I had to completely flush my system out after that, I don't remember how long it took, but it really messed things up. So completely flushed out my system with bleach and water, fresh nutrients, and put the plants back in..and didn't have anymore problems after that. I don't remember if my roots got that bad, I do remember yanking nasty handfuls off and rinsing the remaining roots realy good before putting them back in.
I did not have the plants in the system while bleaching..just want to make that clear. ;-)

Hope any or all of that helps.

Sorry, I don't know the particulars of that image. I found it by doing a search for "growing hydroponic strawberry's" with Yahoo images. I wanted to find out where it was located and such but wasn't able to find anything out. So the picture is all I have to go on. Though the tube should be at 90 degrees for the best positioning. 180 would be upside down and half that is 90. That would put it directly on edge (though I think that is what you meant). I will simply take a long flat piece of wood and draw level 4 inch squares then draw a line from corner to corner then cut out the top triangle of the square to place and hold the tubes in place at the right angle. Then just build the rest if the supports from 2x4's.
Yes, The holes will be closer to 6-7 inches apart for a 5 foot long tube and about 8 inches apart for a 6 foot tube. I would rather it be the 6 foot tube but where and what is available to me is a factor in that decision. If I can get them in 12 foot lengths and cut them in half, I will have the 6 foot pieces but a lot of times tubing is sold in 10 foot lengths. I know one of the pluming supply houses here in town will sell tubing by the foot and even cut it for you. I got some round 6 inch P.V.C. tubing from them before. It was $1.78 a foot.
Not quite, a N.F.T. system is not reliant or even defined by a flat surface. It is simply a continuously flowing stream of water with nutrients in it called the Nutreint Film technique. Yes the tubing is on edge creating the V but I can control the height of the nutrient in this V. It only needs to be high enough so the roots can wick up the moisture to the rest of the root ball and growing medium.
I will be using 4 inch square tubing and 3 inch baskets, so the holes will be just smaller than 3 inches. Yes, the water level can not rise above where the holes are cut or it will spill out. The placement of the holes is important, they all need to be level with the rest because the water level can only go as high as the lowest one. The baskets wont be completely submerged but the bottom corner will be. That will be enough to allow the growing medium to wick up the moisture and saturate it. Especially because I plan to use the coco chips and they hold moisture quite well.
I have 2 timers running 3 systems. The tomato's have there own timer and that is the one that is set for 30 on and 30 off. It's nothing much, only cost about $9 at Home Depot. The important part is it is one with built in pins so it has enough of them. It also has a minimum on/off time of 30 minutes. The other timer is a digital timer that was a discontinued one at Home Depot that I got for about $15. It has a minimum on/off time of 1 minute but it only has 14 on/off times per day, 7 on and 7 off. So I may need to be creative to make sure the plants never go dry. Another reason I like using the Coco chips, they hold the moisture well and don't need watering as much. Nether have multiple outlets, the one running 2 pumps I plugged a power strip with 6 outlets into it. That way when the timer goes on it turns on the whole power strip. This is causing a problem though, it trips the GFI from time to time so I need to check it a few times a day.

I do know someone who builds timers. He is currently in the process of getting them in production for selling to the public. They range from a simple cycle timers to fully customizable timers, including hundreds of on off times per day. Even a photo cell so it can tell when it gets light and can go into day mode. Also a backup battery in case of power outages, that's also important because you don't need to re program it when power returns. I plan to advertise his timers on my hydroponic website to help him out. If you are interested I can E-mail him and see if he is ready sell any yet. Last I knew, he was developing a new circuit board that he can use for all models of them to keep costs down. That way he didn't need to have multiple boards made, just a larger quantity of one board. If you are interested send me a private message with an e-mail, so I can send you the info.
I attached the pictures I took today to show what I mean. The tube goes in from the top and goes in about 3/4 inch to a snug fit. Farther down the hole is actually a smaller size thus stopping the tube from going down any farther. But to lower the level I just need to shorten the tube and reinsert it. The through holes need a flat surface to be water tight, I can use silicone to finish it off on rounded surfaces but don't really want to if I can avoid it. Because the square tubing will be on edge and the V at the bottom the through holes will be slightly to the side on the flat surface, as close to the bottom as I can for the return line. I will also try to get the through holes close to the bottom for the inlet so as much will return back as passable. But because of the V shape, there will always be water/nutrients in the bottom of the V that circulates again when the pump goes on. Probably about an inch or so.

P.S. There is a difference between Coco fiber and Coco chips. Coco fiber has the texture of potting soil and will wash through the holes in the baskets. Coco chips have a texture like small wood chips for your smoker. Some will poke through the holes but 99.99% will stay in the baskets.

I usually use store bought plants if I can find them because I am just impatient and don't want to wait for seeds. I haven't had that problem yet, though I have noticed if the plants are root bound in the container they are much harder to wash off and clean. Especially without damaging the roots. I don't know if that was in your case but just thought I would mention it.

Oh, trust me, I washed them to the point I wasn't sure the plants would survive LOL
I never had that problem again no matter what system, when I started my own seedlings, even in peatpods, which I would not remove when transferring into the hydro systems.