Is there a (tomato) doctor in the house?

[txice]

And it's all actually dependent on other factors such as temperature right? I thought I had read somewhere that a solution at 65F will give one reading, and the exact same solution at 75F will give a different reading.

The 200ppm for our tap water was actually rounded up a bit...I like working with even numbers, lol . The pH of the water straight out of the tap is rather on the high end (around 8) and chlorine content in the water out of the tap is very low. We have a RainSoft water purifier on the house. Don't know how that might affect the ppm reading and what not. It's obviously supposed to make the water "better" by human standards, but I can imagine it wouldn't necessarily be quite as good for plants since water is typically "softened" by removing minerals and such from the water that plants would probably enjoy.

[Luches]

You are trying to be ironic? That's fine with me - but you know what the real irony from my end is? I was having another discussion around the the same topic, where I had to deal with a real meticulous, even obstinate guy. He ended up in calling me unprofessional and inaccurate!

Precision really seems to be a relative thing

Well, anyways - as long as all is going fine with your culture and setup, no-one is asking questions, and precision and details don't matter that much. But as soon as you run into trouble, you start asking questions and need to know even the smallest detail to make a proper diagnosis.

Not sure at all about the water quality that comes out of the softener. Acceptable Human standards and plant nutritional facts aren't exactly the same thing. The softener is actually installed to avoid build-up of minerals (Ca and Mg) in pipes and heating devices, and for some skin cosmetic reasons too, not at all to improve water quality for human "consumption". Most of the calcium and magnesium is replaced by (less) sodium chloride. And that isn't exactly the stuff plants like best! If you can avoid the softener, and using the original hard water (with the Ca and Mg) instead - I'd use that in any case.

The high PH of 8 isn't a good thing at all. I doubt your nutrient solution to drop down to 6 point something, as described by the manufacturer. It will most probably range between 6.5 and 7. That is too high.

Now, when I tell you that having a correct PH is even more important than the right nutrient composition and concentration - will you believe that?

The actual problem is here, that the stronger your nutrient solution is, the more your PH will drop from the original 8. Stupidly enough, with only using 1/4 of the nutrient strength, it will not go down very much and will stay WAY to high.

Your tap water is problematic in every sense, if you want to accept it or not... it may very well be the cause of your "droppy" tomatoes. With your 1/4 strategy you will most probably run into more trouble. The high PH (which actually wasn't lowered enough) may cause deficiencies of other elements, while the nitrogen is absorbed without a problem. Your plants may grow higher and higher but actually get weaker and weaker.

You don't need to believe or apply any of it - and you can always try to do it your own way and see what happens.

[txice]

Wow....you know, since I noticed that old "corn thread" got resurrected and read through it I began to have my suspicions about this, but your latest response to this pretty much confirms it for me. I know I'm new to hydroponics in general...and I'm new to this site but after reading alot of responses from you like this I can come to no other conclusion except to say that you are a pompus ass Luches.

I'm here simply asking questions, taking in information and providing what feedback I can. How you could possibly take anything I said in my last response as me being "ironic" is completely beyond me (and I'm actually wondering if you really meant to say "sarcastic"...but I digress). If people coming here asking questions and trying to learn a thing or two are so far beneath you, why do you even bother?

Acceptable Human standards and plant nutritional facts aren't exactly the same thing

Yes, I know. In fact I pretty much said this exact same thing.

The softener is actually installed to avoid build-up of minerals (Ca and Mg) in pipes and heating devices, and for some skin cosmetic reasons too, not at all to improve water quality for human "consumption".

While partially accurate, the last part of that statement is utterly incorrect. Softeners/purifiers certainly do improve water quality for human consumption. These types of systems can help remove any number of contaminates, pollutants, bacteria, etc. from a water supply that can not only help improve the waters odor and/or taste, but can also help make the water safer to drink in general. Which by any measure is certainly improvement for human consumption.

The high PH of 8 isn't a good thing at all.

Again....this I know and don't believe I ever suggested otherwise.

I doubt your nutrient solution to drop down to 6 point something, as described by the manufacturer.

I doubt it would as well. Point of fact, though, is that the manufacturer, nor I, claim it will....not sure where you got that from.

Now, when I tell you that having a correct PH is even more important than the right nutrient composition and concentration - will you believe that?

Not sure why I wouldn't...especially as this, too, was something I already knew.

Stupidly enough, with only using 1/4 of the nutrient strength, it will not go down very much and will stay WAY to high.

The only thing stupid here is that you assume I'm not monitoring my pH and using buffering agents to either raise or lower the pH to an optimum range.

Your tap water is problematic in every sense, if you want to accept it or not...

You caught me. I am in denial and simply cannot accept the fact that my tap water is horrible. (Now see, while that isn't irony...it certainly is sarcasm).

With your 1/4 strategy you will most probably run into more trouble.

Perhaps so. I may not be the master self-nutrient mixer extraordinaire with all earthly knowledge of hydroponics but hey, guess what...I'm trying and learning little bits here and there. If I fail and kill a plant....I'll try to grow another one. If you are in some way hurt by the fact that I actually did the nutrient swap and went with a 1/4 strength solution prior to reading your response suggesting it wasn't a good idea, sorry. A lot of other folks out there have posted other information indicating it worked perfectly well for them and well....it just might work perfectly well for me too. All I can do is try and see what happens.

The high PH (which actually wasn't lowered enough)

Again...incorrect assumption. My pH was lowered quite enough thank you very much.

You don't need to believe or apply any of it - and you can always try to do it your own way and see what happens.

You know what...this is EXACTLY what I intend to do. I will also continue to visit here and post and research other sources as I can find them. I was willing to take your advice to heart and try to apply it to my situation, but the more I get into reading your posts, the more I realize you aren't really here to try to help people learn....you're here to try and dictate your own philosophies and berate anyone that might have a differing opinion or an inability/unwillingness to implement your "suggestions" to the letter. I'm not here to profess I know all about gardening be it in the ground or a homemade hydroponics system...in fact I'll readily admit to just the opposite. You sir or madam, do indeed come off with a "holier than thou" attitude however (as I believe has also been commented on elsewhere) and quite frankly it's unappealing. It honestly would not hurt my feelings in the least if you decided to never reply to another one of my posts (and feel free to take this more as a request than a generalized statement).

right back at 'cha. Have a nice day....and good luck with that corn.

[Luches]

Why wasting all that time and energy with blaming me for the issues you've got there? I am just telling the blunt facts and giving best advice I can. You tell us that you are new and not experienced and I have to assume that I have to be basic in some way or the other.

Either you take things too personally (which I really wasn't aiming for), or you have a problem with coping with some facts I brought up.

This is not about my philosophy or revolutionary theories, personal attitude of mine or anything of the sort - those are actual basics that can be confirmed and recognized eventually with your future research and investigations. All I was telling in this context is just informational and can easily be confirmed (assuming that the input you gave was correct and honest). Well, some of it at least may need a second level of understanding - but the fact that it isn't widely spread, doesn't render it questionable or invalid. Unless you simply and principally don't want to accept it, you may always find a way to make it questionable and push it away.

I don't see how delivering simple facts (and at least trying to be funny, actually ironic) could possibly make me "holier" or look smarter, arrogant, snobbish - or whatever behavior may be classified selfish or arrogant in this context. I guess it must be the other way round - some people seem to feel not holy enough when getting faced too bluntly with some facts they didn't consider in the first place. Especially U.S people seem to have a serious problem with accepting expertise and authority that is neither coming from a fellow countryman, nor "invented here" nor labeled U.S. patent, signed Berkley or Cambridge. In case I am wrong here, tell me what hidden switch I possibly may have triggered then!?

I honestly thought you were a nice chap that needs a helping hand - but as it seems I was really naive about that. I truly can't understand why you are that offended, reacting that grossly and becoming that offending to me all of a sudden.

You aren't "somebody else" and haven't been plotting it all along and trying to frame me, right?!

Just kidding Mate - but please understand that the helping part I was providing to you, has come to an abrupt end here anyway, will you?

[txice]

Why wasting all that time and energy with blaming me for the issues you've got there?

Actually no....I don't have any issues but thanks for asking.

I am just telling the blunt facts and giving best advice I can. You tell us that you are new and not experienced and I have to assume that I have to be basic in some way or the other.

No, actually you really appear to be making up a whole bunch of stuff that nobody else ever mentioned. And, just because I'm "new" to a hobby, doesn't in fact mean I'm dense. So your assumption that you have to be "basic" is incorrect.

Either you take things too personally (which I really wasn't aiming for), or you have a problem with coping with some facts I brought up.

What I don't take well to is people pulling random statements I never made (i.e. facts to you) out of their rear end and then berating me for either believing or not believing them.

Especially U.S people seem to have a serious problem with accepting expertise and authority that is neither coming from a fellow countryman, nor "invented here" nor labeled U.S. patent, signed Berkley or Cambridge.

Aha...so here it is. You play the hidden "You're a racist" card eh? This has absolutely nothing to do with the color of your skin or what country you're from and it's actually quite pathetic you have to stoop to this level to defend your position. I have no problem accepting expertise and authority. Fact is, short of spamming out a few dozen posts on a (not so highly visited) web hydroponics forum, you have provided no actual proof you have either. I don't know you from Adam. You could be the world foremost expert on hydroponics for all I know, but all I know about you is what I read here and what I've seen thus far is not flattering. I'm sorry, but once you just ourtight jump on someone without provocation, make up statements that person never said and call that person stupid....you've lost any respect of mine and I won't hesitate calling you on it.

I honestly thought you were a nice chap that needs a helping hand - but as it seems I was really naive about that. I truly can't understand why you are that offended, reacting that grossly and becoming that offending to me all of a sudden.

Oh I am a nice "chap" thanks. And I did indeed come here looking for a helping hand and to maybe get to a point where I could contribute to a community that shared my new found passion for wanting to learn to grow plants in hydroponic systems. If you are truly that confused about the way I reacted to your post, even after pointing out the various reasons in my response, all I can suggest is that you a) might need to work on your communication skills a little more and b) you don't interject "facts" that people never mentioned and then berate them for it.

You aren't "somebody else" and haven't been plotting it all along and trying to frame me, right?!

Ummmmm.....got me again?? I'm not really me....I'm Mr. Jeebes the high school janitor, and I'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids and that confounded dog!!

Just kidding Mate - but you must understand that the helping part I was providing to you, has come to an abrupt end here anyway, don't you?

LOL...."helping part". I like that. Well, let me see then.....yeah, I'm cool with that.

Oh yeah....

[Luches]

Were you looking for advice or actually for a fine debate?

Anyway - I am afraid, but your thing is all home made!
Read my post again: I wasn't quoting you a single time, nor assuming anything you'd know or don't know (yet), didn't mention what you were doing or leaving out. I wasn't actually referring to anything you said or did, - while explaining a few things. Obviously always in the context of your situation - but nothing more and nothing less! In one particular case I was (implicitly) referring to the manufacturers instructions of your product - you aren't the manufacturer, or are you? Hence not pulling anything related to your person! Not even one single point was meant in any personal way!

If you don't like something it is ONE THING and actually YOUR problem - but do not falsely assume or blame me for doing it! As I was NOT!!!!

Honestly, you can't be asking for advice, call for a doctor - and 5 minutes later blame him for treating you like an idiot. Only because he is telling you a few things you haven't ever heard of nor couldn't find during your last google search! You can't call him incompetent either, just because he's revealing you a few rather unpleasant things you weren't expecting and won't believe for some reason or another!

I am confused - wether you aren't an expert or you are! You can't switch from one status to another, or can you actually? Strange....

If you were truly wondering about that bunch of things, that weren't mentioned anywhere else, - welcome to the world of fine parts and secrets of hydroponics! Or, in case you are just "buying" things that are told and thought everywhere on the net and in forums, fine also. Just stay that way and better ignore and forget everything I was saying.

Goodness, no racist card played here either, just teasing the nationalist part out of you. Playing the racist card would indeed look and sound much differently. I have not even a reason to pull such card, as I am from the same race as you are (most probably). Wrong anticipation here again, I am just saying that some americans like YOU really seem to have a HUGE ego that is offended easily. In this case even for rather wrongly anticipated reasons. National related or not, I even don't care. Just spare me with yours - I am good with mine!

Still, my personal impression actually is that in French-, Australian-, Italian-, Brazilian-, .... (I was about to add German, but giving it a second thought, I can't include them...) -forums, I rarely run into trouble. More than ten years of forum activity is a long time and yes shit happens, but I have never ever encountered such kind of disrespect and gross behavior, as you and some of your fine compatriots have come along with. No, let's be honest: if Germans get really mad at you, they're actually the worst. They beat anyone and are able to come up with the meanest crap you've ever read (if ever you can read German).

[txice]

Anyway - I am afraid, but your thing is all home made!
Read my post again: I wasn't quoting you a single time, nor assuming anything you'd know or don't know (yet), didn't mention what you were doing or leaving out. I wasn't actually referring to anything you said or did, - while explaining a few things. Obviously always in the context of your situation - but nothing more and nothing less! In one particular case I was (implicitly) referring to the manufacturers instructions of your product - you aren't the manufacturer, or are you? Hence not pulling anything related to your person! Not even one single point was meant in any personal way!

Why yes, my system is homemade...and I presume that must be the reason I'm having a nutrient problem eh? Another means to try to call me out on something because you can't rebut the points I made I see. I've already gone over most of this and shown where you've done just what you claim you aren't doing here, but I will touch on one thing. You're right, I'm not the manufacturer (good catch! ). I know you were referring to the manufacturers instructions (referring to Technafloras "recipie for success" based on the context of the comment originally made). I also pointed out that you were (implicitly) misinterpreting them as well. The manufacturer in no way implies that if you put their mix into your nutrient reservoir it will magically buffer your entire solution to 6.08. They state that the mix of nutrients called out in the recipe mixed in a single gallon of neutral solution should have a pH of 6.08. They also instruct, however, that if by some chance it's not (if you don't mix it in a neutral solution, i.e. tap water, for example), measures should be taken to adjust the pH to the specified range of 5.8 - 6.2. Something which you also incorrectly assumed I did not do (do I need to quote your statement again to prove this??)

I am confused

This is actually about the only thing I can agree with you on and all I will say to this is yes....yes indeed you are.

Goodness, no racist card played here either, just teasing the nationalist part out of you.

Any teasing aside (which I personally seriously doubt you were doing), that is EXACTLY the card you played. You flat out accused me of not accepting you only because you are different than I am and that my friend is calling someone a racist.

...americans like YOU really seem to have a HUGE ego...

ROFLMAO!!!. Hrmm...yeah, I can't even come up with a better way to respond to that aside from rolling on the ground laughing hysterically.

More than ten years of forum activity is a long time and yes shit happens, but I have never ever encountered such kind of disrespect and gross behavior, as you and some of your fine compatriots have come along with.

The only common thread here my friend is YOU.

No, let's be honest: if Germans get really mad at you, they're actually the worst.

Wow...nice. And with statements like that you wonder why a certain group of people might not like you?

[GpsFrontier]

I cant really improve on that.

All I can say is, WELL PUT txice!!!

P.S. Brings back memory's.

[txice]

Originally Posted by GpsFrontier

P.S. Brings back memory's.

I know, right? LOL! I'm gonna go grab some popcorn....this might get good. Internet drama FTW!