Hydroponic at 45-50 degree celcious

[Luches]

Seasonal planting applies for most crops and around the world, it has always been and still is what experienced and smart people do locally. It's part of what is called adapting and "collaborating" with nature.

We are talking 45-50° C here, - that's up to 122° Fahrenheit right?
For the sake of it, be reasonable and realistic and forget about contradicting me for one time!

No way to talk around or giving analogies from other cases that will certainly not apply here. No expert would ever recommend growing strawberries or tomato in soil or in hydroponics under temperatures reaching 122° Fahrenheit, or agree to install what ever it takes to lower temperatures to fit the crops. For beginners and amateurs that haven't the toolset and experience, it would certainly end up in a waste of time and some kind or the other of disaster .

You can always install and build whatever it takes to "fight nature"- IF you can and want to go down that road by all means. But in some cases like this, the price (in a large sense) would be much to high. In small scale it wouldn't be reasonable and rentable anyway - and big scale would only be justified and rentable when expected market value/price would truly justify the work, the technical means and the total investment.

In some cases not even trying is the problem, but in many others trying the impossible and irrational becomes even a bigger problem ;-)

The sheep is the one who follows blindly and listens to what is told easily - while the Black Sheep is the one who principally doesn't listen to anyone and doesn't ever admit any error. It does strictly everything his/her own way even if a thousand experts and 2000 specialists are making the contrary more than obvious, even if the whole family and all friends say differently. This kind of sheep can't see further than the end of its nose, I believe.

[GpsFrontier]

Seasonal planting applies for most crops and around the world, it has always been and still is what experienced and smart people do locally. It's part of what is called adapting and "collaborating" with nature.

Well it works for stupid people also. I have been there and done that. I guess your saying that I am lying, (well tough). I have my experiences even if you don't like them. You think you are the only smart person on the planet? If you want to trade insults I will be happy to ablidge, I can do that well and have fun with it.

We are talking 45-50° C here, - that's up to 122° Fahrenheit right?

Yes that's my understanding, by the way that's the exact temperatures/conditions that I live in (even up to 128 Fahrenheit) so I am well aware of them. The temperature on the day the earlier pictures I posted were taken were about 110 degrees Fahrenheit daily.

be reasonable and realistic and forget about contradicting me for one time!

That's your problem, I have had my experiences in life, and if you don't like them why don't you have them for me. You don't need to agree with me, but you have not lived my life, and I'm not part of your congregation.

No expert would ever recommend growing strawberries or tomato in soil or in hydroponics under temperatures reaching 122° Fahrenheit, or agree to install what ever it takes to lower temperatures to fit the crops.

Well if the experts like you (I say that laughing) would not recommend something that works, why ask an expert. I am not an expert but I have done it. So it stands to reason if the EXPERTS don't know what they are doing, and a stupid person like me can do it, an expert isn't worth that much (at least the ones you know).

You can always install and build whatever it takes to "fight nature"- IF you can and want to go down that road by all means. But in some cases like this, the price (in a large sense) would be much to high.

Yes you are right, new people just starting out are defiantly going to want to start out on a large scale, without any experience. Anyone wanting to go down that road wont be asking questions from people they don't know in some forum, and relying on those reply's.

The sheep is the one who follows blindly and listens to what is told easily - while the Black Sheep is the one who principally doesn't listen to anyone and doesn't ever admit any error. It does strictly everything his/her own way even if a thousand experts and 2000 specialists are making the contrary more than obvious, even if the whole family and all friends say differently. This kind of sheep can't see further than the end of its nose, I believe.

So now you think you are 2000 experts all rolled into one, and you are the principal that you consider yourself the "anyone" that I and everyone else needs to just believe. I contently find mistakes, and I admit to them when I do. I never do otherwise. Some mistakes are harder to admit to than others, and even made with honest intentions. But if you are going to be honest with yourself there's no other choice, and I need to look at myself in the mirror in the morning.

I give others the benefit of the doubt, thus respect, simply because I don't know there situation, they don't know mine either. I expect the same back, and when I'm in the presence of others that are disrespected, you'll receive the same disrespect back. I have never considered myself (or said) I was an expert. I'm an honest person (even if it hurts), but I wont just believe something because one person (much less you) say I should, especially when I have already seen otherwise for myself. If I only have two choices (fallow blindly, or do my own thing regardless), then I have only one choice because I will never fallow blindly. So you will need to find another congregation member for the church of Luches.

[Luches]

You are taking things too personally again, you are not very objective as usual and projecting too much on me here, suggesting pages of what I haven't ever said nor meant even remotely. That's why you can't make a difference between what is in fact well-meant and what may not...

When I make appeal to an expert opinion I am talking in general of course. Furthermore I'm just appealing to common sense, I guess... unfortunately there seems no-one around that shares it - and it's just "you and me" as usual. The actual poster most probably got already sick of the debate. No invitation for some lurking partisans to get cute or start courting with me again, though...

Well let's grab the baldie by the hair then, as you take things personally and can't be objective either anyway, no matter how I put them: Do you really recommend people growing tomato with 122-128 ° Fahrenheit, and implicitly tell them they need to dig out holes that are big enough to accommodate a sniper and his assistant with their weekly ration, plus half of a green house structure around, and the whole enchilada of insulation and all the other stuff that goes with one of your desert setups, - to just grow 4 tomato plants?

Goodness, the expenditure doesn't justify the outcome, no matter how. Not for amateur purposes and not for any facility expansion. And that's exactly (not more and not less) what I am talking about. And one doesn't need to have a PhD in neuro-surgery nor being any expert in any field, to question the expenditure -not even talking about the rentability.

It's all so obvious and yet you apparently can't see any of your views and ideas being actually very uncommon and in fact a prime example of an economically unbearable venture!? You said that you want to do a living of it in the near future. Have you ever made the maths of your investments (including the labor that would be needed for the expansion of those 4 plants) versus your yield or income?

[GpsFrontier]

When I make appeal to an expert opinion I am talking in general of course.

Well then I guess I am a expert then under those conditions also.

Furthermore I'm just appealing to common sense

That is exactly what I am referring to, but what is common in this country must be different than what's common in that one.

The actual poster most probably got already sick of the debate.

That is what usually what happens when you get that way, that's what disappointing me the most. You drive off all the people who may have good information, leaving only you.

Do you really recommend people growing tomato with 122-128 °

I would and am.

either anyway, no matter how I put them: Do you really recommend people growing tomato with 122-128 ° Fahrenheit, and implicitly tell them they need to dig out holes that are big enough to accommodate a sniper

sniper would never be able to fit in the hole I dug, it's only 30 inches (wanted 36) deep and less than 2 feet wide. It took so much to dig because of the type of ground we have here. If I needed it deeper/bigger, I would just rent a backhoe.

plus half of a green house structure around

I never suggested to place the greenhouse structure underground.

and the whole enchilada of insulation and all the other stuff that goes with one of your desert setups, - to just grow 4 tomato plants?

I already did it for four tomato plants and it only cost about $100 for the whole enchilada.
As posted in this thread:
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...y-tomatos.html

Goodness, the expenditure doesn't justify the outcome, no matter how. Not for amateur purposes and not for any facility expansion. And that's exactly (not more and not less) what I am talking about. And one doesn't need to have a PhD in neuro-surgery nor being any expert in any field, to question the expenditure -not even talking about the rentability.

It's all so obvious and yet you apparently can't see any of your views and ideas being actually very uncommon and in fact a prime example of an economically unbearable venture!?

Babble, babble, babble. None of this can take away from anything I know or have done.

You said that you want to do a living of it in the near future. Have you ever made the maths of your investments (including the labor that would be needed for the expansion of those 4 plants) versus your yield or income?

I would never make an income from 4 plants. Home gardeners are not trying to make a profit, just spend less at the market. Yes I have done a feasibility study with the SBDA concerning profitability, as well as marketability. There is no guarantees with regards to agriculture (soil or hydro), so I cant (nor can anyone else) guarantee anything. There is a verifiable market. I know what I have done (grown), I also know the hazards and hurdles for my projects in my environment for a commercial project. As well as projected yields (per plant, Highs and lows). But if there was a guaranteed everyone would be doing it.

Whats the idea behind a geothermal reservoir GpsFrontier?

Geothermal energy is simply the transfer of heat into the ground. The ground sucks the heat out of anything placed deep enough (3-5 feet). Ever been in a cool cave in the hot summer? Geothermal is the ground, energy is the transfer of heat. Once you build it, it's free energy. The key is making maintenance easy with good contact, that's where my plans differ a little from most.

Tomato pollen is sterile when temps hit that high (day and night), tried growing them during summer on a sheltered balcony where it was about 45 Celsius day

Sorry to hear that, I had great luck with mine. It's quite possible there were other variables involved. I would continue until I figured things out. Then you can adjust things on a larger scale if needed.

[Luches]

You'd even scare a dozen "real experts" away with your quoting mania GPS and you'd also ignore a few more of their second opinions as if they couldn't be trusted anyway. Even more links with scientific facts, experiences, testimonies or what ever would come across here, wouldn't ever change your mind, right?

Sadly enough it is pointless to try to have any dialogue with you.

You are free to ignore all facts and clues that are brought to you, but that doesn't make anything of what you think ore write to any thread or question more credible, more plausible and certainly not recommendable for anyone.

[GpsFrontier]

Originally Posted by Luches

You'd even scare a dozen "real experts" away with your quoting mania GPS and you'd also ignore a few more of their second opinions as if they couldn't be trusted anyway. Even more links with scientific facts, experiences, testimonies or what ever would come across here, wouldn't ever change your mind, right?

Sadly enough it is pointless to try to have any dialogue with you.

You are free to ignore all facts and clues that are brought to you, but that doesn't make anything of what you think ore write to any thread or question more credible, more plausible and certainly not recommendable for anyone.

I am not afraid if any so called experts get scared, that is there problem. I have only read the title in the earlier link (I was going to bed), but there is a real difference between reading and doing. The tomato's I grew in Calif had no problem in heat. Yes that wasn't 120+ degrees Fahrenheit, but I have been living in Lake Havasu AZ for about 6 years now, in 120+ degrees Fahrenheit. People grow tomato's in raised flower beds, pots and even prepared soil beds. They do this every year successfully, and they don't seem to stop setting fruit when it gets hot.

This may be because the nursery's usually sell heat tolerant variety's here, I don't know. But the fact is they grow successfully here in our heat when taken care of. I doubt I would ever be able to read anything that can change the past. If that scares the experts, maybe they should stop being experts for a while, and try to find out what the regular people are doing that is working. Then take that information back to expert land.

[Luches]

Do you have any backup or proof of what you are saying there?, I mean that you and others grow tomatoes regularly and successfully under 120+ degree Fahrenheit outdoors (and not in cooled/air conditioned greenhouses)?

Anything of the sort, a second opinion of some grower, a link, whatever evidence would change what you are saying from just someone pretending a thing to becoming a credible statement. Otherwise you could simply pretend just anything to defend your point - it may be true or not and others may believe it or not.

The point is: will tomatoes (and strawberries), you said peppers as well will have no problem btw, set fruits under temperatures up to and a little over 120+ Fahrenheit?!

I am still pretending fruits will not set or very very hardly, and if ever some would, there would be high danger for BER (blossom end rot) dropping off of small fruits. And if there would be just a few fruits by miracle, they would be rather pathetic in size and quality.

That is why under no circumstances (except in air conditioned greenhouses or similar facilities), I do NOT recommend to growing any tomato, strawberry and not even most peppers under temperatures up to 122° Fahrenheit or 50°C. Neither in soil nor in hydroponics.

What if I'd post this topic in some other tomato, AZ or some other gardening or hydroponic forums, just to see what others may think of growing tomato, strawberry etc. under up to 50°C in AZ or elsewhere?

I anyway strongly recommend to anyone interested in this or even interested in growing tomato, strawberry or else in such hot climate to get second opinions on this topic.

[GGM]

Whats the idea behind a geothermal reservoir GpsFrontier?

[GGM]

Tomato pollen is sterile when temps hit that high (day and night), tried growing them during summer on a sheltered balcony where it was about 45 Celsius day time and 30 at night and got about 99% blossom drop, no problem with vegative growth though and started fruiting again once autumn set in. The Effect of Heat Stress on Tomato Pollen Characteristics is Associated with Changes in Carbohydrate Concentration in the Developing Anthers -- PRESSMAN et al. 90 (5): 631 -- Annals of Botany

[Luches]

Right, they will not set fruits even under lower temperatures than 40°C if night temperatures do not drop considerably. I have a few plants left in a NFT set under actual 39-41+°C, they actually look great, - but obviously not a single fruit is nor will be setting under these conditions! If by some wonder so, I wouldn't be safe of dropping fruits or BER, though....