new member considering hydroponics

[Kframe]

I have been considering growing my food hydroponicly for a while now. I want to be able to grow more of my own food. The soil around my home is not the best.

Now my questions are as follows, sorry for the abrupt ness of this, my kids destroyed my keyboard. I put it back to gether, but its not the best.

i know that some foods need different systems, i just need help picking which ones i need.

there are a selection of root crops that i want to grow, such as turnips and carrots, beets and radishs. i also wish to grow various leaf crops, such as collard greens, spinach kale and chard and of course lettuce. i also plan to grow broccoli and green beens. Edit to add onions to that list.

the problem with root crops is to much water and they will rott and spoil. i know for them i would need a good grow medium. hydroton would not work for root crops But would perilite/vermiculite mix work, or is there some t hing else i should consider.

so i need to figure out which system i need to buy or build that would suit my needs.

From what i have seen, for the non root crops, i can use either a dwc or ebb and flow. my question is What is the differences between dwc and ebb aand flow, i just cant see a difference, but im new.

i have thought about a general hydroponics drip ring system, but for the life of me cant figure out how t hings grow in the middle of the drip ring, when no water./nutrients are dripped there. root crops like carrots require only a little space and one pot can hold many carrots, so i wounder how a drip ring would handle small root crops. sure it would work for a single potato plant, but i cant have potatos so no go there..

Id like to start with one system use it for as much as possible, i just dont know were to start. so which system would fit most if not all of my neeeds?

Thanks for reading this, i look forward to talking with you.

for

[GpsFrontier]

Hello Kframe'
you have a lot of goals. For root veggies use a sand based growing medium (large grain sand). Mix it with perlite and/or vermiculite for moisture retention and aeration. I would suggest running it as a drip system. Sand drains well (to well, hence the perlite and/or vermiculite), but it also provides a soil like texture for good shape/development. Also the perlite and/or vermiculite adds areation for the roots. Sand also provides weight that mimics soil. I finished building just such a system for growing radishes and green onions today. There will be a difference between crops. You will need a much deeper growing area for potatoes, carrots etc. than you would for radishes etc.. So designing it depends a lot on what/and how much you expect to harvest. Onions fall under a root crop as well.

From what i have seen, for the non root crops, i can use either a dwc or ebb and flow. my question is What is the differences between dwc and ebb aand flow, i just cant see a difference, but im new.

DWC (deep water culture)
is just a variation of a water culture system. A water culture system consists of the roots being submerged in the nutrient solution 24/7. It uses a air pump to pump air bubbles thought the water. The air bubbles are necessary to keep the roots from suffocating, and providing water movement in the container (that would normally be provided by a water pump).

Ebb and Flow (and/or Flood and Drain)
Unlike where a water culture system (DWC included) where the roots are continuously submerged in the nutrient solution. A ebb and flow (flood and drain) does just that. It floods the roots for a period of time, then drains the water (nutrient solution) from the area. The roots are kept from suffocation because the the water is periodically drained from the root area.

For lettuce crops I would go with a water culture system. Broccoli, i would go with a drip system. For green beans, I would go with either a flood and drain, or drip system.

i have thought about a general hydroponics drip ring system, but for the life of me cant figure out how t hings grow in the middle of the drip ring, when no water./nutrients are dripped there.

It depends a lot on the growing medium used, how much of it there is, and how often they dippers run. Water runs downhill, but a growing medium that absorbs moisture well will wick it up easily. That sucks the moisture into the center of the container near the plants. I attached a picture of a drip ring I created for a broccoli plant that worked great using coco chips for a growing medium. You can see by the later picture it worked fine.

root crops like carrots require only a little space and one pot can hold many carrots, so i wounder how a drip ring would handle small root crops. sure it would work for a single potato plant, but i cant have potatos so no go there..

It works just like it would if you were using drip lines for soil. The moisture is wicked up by the growing medium, but does drain down hill. The moisture spreads out thought the growing medium, but it can only spread so far from the drip point/s. That's where your design, and choice of growing medium come into play. Again I was using coco chips, but if you look closely at the pics of my melons ,you can see the black tubing on top of the growing medium. I made holes in it and used the tubing ad my drip ring.

[Kframe]

Cool t hank you for such a quick reply. So, the grow media will wick the moisture/nutrients from the ring back up the middle. Great, that is awesome, becuase the 2 hydroponic stores in my town both have drip ring systems cheap.

Thank you for the sugesstions on the systems to use for my different plant needs. Based on what you have shown me and told me, i can run a drip system for most of my larger plant needs and then either ebbflow or dwc for my leafy veggi needs.

One question tho, Why drip system for broccoli and a ebbflow or DWC for greenbeans? i know broccoli is a large plant, but so is the variety of green been i grow, which is bush beans. its just for clarification.

i guess the last thing, should i build a system or buy my first one? i saw a build thread for a dwc and it looked easy, storage tote, airline,areation rock,aquarium pump. my question is, how big of a air pump do you need to feed multiple buckets say 4 buckets. do you need multiple air pumps, or just a larger size?

Im sure i could figure out a drip ring system, they seam pretty straight forward, tho id have to figure out how to recirculate it.

im sure building one would be cheaper, im just afraid of buying the wrong stuff to or something to weak.


lastly is aeroponics the future of hydroponics, it seams that it is the most advanced form. lol i know that its far beyond my ability.hehe.

[GpsFrontier]

First I should say I am just saying what I would do, and what my preferences are. Other peoples opinions may vary.

One question tho, Why drip system for broccoli and a ebbflow or DWC for greenbeans? i know broccoli is a large plant, but so is the variety of green been i grow, which is bush beans. its just for clarification.

Basically in one word "maintenance." From my experience broccoli is such a large plant that there are two main problems using a DWC, that a drip system wont have. One is plant support. It's such a heavy plant, A DWC system would need to be designed to support a lot of weight above the water without caving in, cracking etc.. Second is such a large plant will drink up something like 1-2 gallons of water every day. That poses 2 problems, replacing the water, and needing a sufficient amount of water volume (nutrient solution) so your not constantly fighting nutrient imbalances, and/or pH swings. That means a large DWC system for just one plant. Instead of one larger reservoir to feed multiple plants.

Yes beans are a large plant, but are easy to support the plants weight with a trellis. If using a ebb & flow (flood and drain) system for broccoli, the plants can become so top heavy that the system just tips over (depending on your design). Again it depends on how you design the system, and tying a broccoli plant to a trellis, well I just cant see that working out well. Here is a thread I started showing the simple flood and drain system I built for growing peas, and green beans. It wound up being too cold for the green beans (the 4 in the center of the tube) at the time I got it running. And by the time it got warmer, the peas had already taken over. But this is the type of flood and drain system I would build for the green beans. http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...rd-system.html It would never work for broccoli, again for multiple reasons (including the root mass). But you could build a bucket flood and drain system for broccoli, however a drip system would still be simpler and more efficient to me.

i guess the last thing, should i build a system or buy my first one? i saw a build thread for a dwc and it looked easy, storage tote, airline,areation rock,aquarium pump. my question is, how big of a air pump do you need to feed multiple buckets say 4 buckets. do you need multiple air pumps, or just a larger size?

I always opt to build my own systems, again my choice and preference. If your interested, send me a privet message with an e-mail address I can send a pdf file to. I have complete directions on building the same drip system that I grew my broccoli plants in. And I built the whole thing for about $80 (including the pump). This is the one I'm talking about http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...w-systems.html

I don't have the complete directions in pdf. yet for these, but here are a couple that I have built in the past, and if you need any help building anything don't hesitate to ask. Again here is the thread of the flood and drain I built for peas and green beans: http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...rd-system.html.

The only difference between a DWC (deep water culture) and a regular water culture system is just how deep the water is. Typically if the water is more than about 8 inches deep people refer to it as a deep water culture. I just refer to them all as a water culture. Here is a water culture system I built for growing lettuce: http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...th-system.html. I also attached a few images I created of this system that I plan to use in the pdf. of the design plans (when I get around to writing it). It's very easy to expand to as many growing chambers you need/want. I used a single (duel output) air pump (for fish tanks up to 30-60 gallons), for 1 growing chamber. Although only one output was working, and I'm not sure it was working well. But it still grew my lettuce, though the more air output the better.

Depending on what you ultimately decide to build, say you decided on building four of these growing chambers I built, I would probably go with a minimum of 2 duel output air pumps (for 30-60 gallon fish tanks). But again the more air output the better. If I had a bit more money I would probably decide to get a high volume aquarium air pump (with multiple outputs) like was discuses in this thread: http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for....html#post3451

Im sure i could figure out a drip ring system, they seam pretty straight forward, tho id have to figure out how to recirculate it.

Again if you want I can e-mail you the directions for building the drip system I built for my broccoli. It covers recirculating the nutrient solution. Aeroponics is a good design, however there is a true aeroponics system, and there is what most people consider a areoponics system (including me). But there is a difference, the difference has to do with the water pressure, and ultimately the water droplet size. It's not what I would exactly consider the wave of the future, but aeroponics definitely has it's advantages and disadvantages like anything else.

[Kframe]

gps, i like the design of your third system. that looks likeit would work for most bushy plants.

I was woundering if you have ever seen general hydroponics ebb and grow, is it a ebb and flow system as its name suggests. its got a 4x4 tray design that i think would make a great setup for leafy veggies. it kinda a what i would love to set up for my leafy veggie needs. i wounder if i could replicate some similar.

At this point i need to pick a system to do first. im thinking of making a few dwcs to handle my leafy veggie needs. What about doing a dwc indoors for my leafy needs? my homes temprature is a stable 72degrees all the time. Would i have to rig up some l ighting or would placing it near a window suffice for my leafy needs. Not just lettuce but collard and spinich as well. Any thoughts. if i do put it out side, how do i handle rain, keeping rain o ut But sunlight in?

What about the other systems, how do they handle being rained on, wont that affect the ph of the water? id imagine i could rig up a canopy or some such, but do you have any ideas on what matieral it should be. maybe a clear plastic sheet, such as used for painting could help?

i wounder how many dwc setups id need to keep a decent supply of my leafy greens.
Also how long does a supply water/nutrients in dwc last?

[GpsFrontier]

I did a search for "general hydroponics ebb and grow" but saw a lot of different systems. Do you have a link to the one your talking about? It's fairly easy to replicate any commercially built system, it just depends on what materials you have available to work with.

Growing inside is fine, you just need to consider the cost of a lighting system, and the electricity to run them. I know lettuces is a low light requirement plant and grows well under florescent lights. But I'm not sure about collard and spinach under florescent, I just don't remember anyone talking about growing them, and I grow everything outside (so far) myself. You can set the grow near a window that gets lots of sun, but you may still need supplemental lighting.

We don't really get much rain here in the desert, but rain hasn't been much of a problem for me. My reservoir's are usually under a table to keep them in the shade anyway. The containers with the plants in them are really the only part that rain gets into. Most of the time what rain does get in is beneficial to me, because as the plants grow they drink up water, and I just need to replace it. The rain water that does get in does that for me. The only system that did occasionally become flooded was my broccoli plants, the tops of the open 5 gallon buckets allowed a good amount of water in. I was using a 18 gallon reservoir (with 12-15 gallons of nutrient solution in it), the broccoli plants would drink 5-6 gallons of water a day.

So the rain mostly just replaced what the plants were drinking. But occasionally we would get long periods of rain that would overfill the reservoir, I just waited until the threat of rain was over, and mixed a fresh batch of nutrient solution. Most of the time they were due for a nutrient change anyway, I keep an eye on the 10 day weather forecast at www.intellicast.com (just type in your zip code in the local weather bar), and I don't change my nutrient solution if there is a chance of rain. I had planed to cut a hole in a lid for 5 gallon buckets for the broccoli, to reduce the opening the rain could get in from, but just never really got around to it.

I did build a frame and covered it with shade cloth to help with the summer heat for my strawberry's (picture attached), and I have covered it with a plastic drop cloth to keep rain off of some seedlings. Although I learned that it should be rounded, or a "A" frame top so the water flows down, instead of pooling on the top. Something like that would work, especially if you get a lot of rain. Although I would concentrate on reducing the openings the rain can get in from. That can be done in various ways, depending on your system design.

i wounder how many dwc setups id need to keep a decent supply of my leafy greens.

First you want to decide how much you eat, of each plant. That should give you an idea of how many plants you will want to grow, and then design the system around that. I usually like to have a few extra, people love it when you give them some hydroponically grown produce. Depending on the type of plant, like with leafy greens, I would consider a "harvest and replacement" operation. That takes up less space, and ensures you will have a continuous supply, rather than harvesting it all at the same time, and having to much all at once. Then needing to wait for new plants to mature before you have more to eat. Harvest and replacement can be done with any plants, though some easier than others, as well as some systems easier than others.

Also how long does a supply water/nutrients in dwc last?

Until the nutrients are used up or out of balance, or if something unwanted is growing in it (like fungi or pathogens). There are a lot of variables to how long to go between nutrient changes, with plant size and water volume being the biggest factors, as well as abnormal pH swings. Each grower has there own learning curve. I typically change mine anywhere from each week to once a month. For new hydroponic growers I always suggest to start by changing it every week, say for a month, and look at your plants every day. Then change it every other week, looking at the plants every day (check regularly for pH swings). Then stretch it out to 3 weeks, doing the same. By looking at your plants every day, you soon will be able to tell just by looking at the plants when it's time to change the nutrient solution. That's exactly what I do, I don't even mark the calender anymore, I just observe the plants color and growth.

P.S. Make sure you mark the water line inside of the reservoir, that way as the plants drink up the water. You will know exactly how much plain water to replace. Otherwise you may wind up with a diluted nutrient solution if you add to much, or a concentrated nutrient solution if you don't replace enough water.

[Kframe]

Pardon me gps, i had a brain fart and typed the wrong product. Here is the product i was refereing 2. 4FT X 4FT JETFLO ECONO W BENC
This looks like it would be a very usefull system. it appears to hold many plants.

When it comes to the amount of leafy greens and others i want to eat, it comes down to one word. Alot. Im on the 2002 version of the atkins diet and greens are a major part of my diet, and expensive. I have lost 50lbs so far. right now collard greens and spinach and broccoli are my primary greens, with green beens thrown in when i get the mood. i must also grow lettuce for my wife and occasionaly for a salad for me.

Later on ill be able to add turnips and other root crops, but thats not for a while so im not 2 worried about them. I also want to grow tomatos for my wife and kids, they love them, i can eat them but only in small quanties. ill likely do tomatos and beens in a system like your third system. I already knoww that ill need to grow close to 20 bean plants to keep enough beans for my family. (will be freezing them)

So its ok to grow out side, good, becuse that would solve a lot of problems, especialy with a long system that i plan on using for beans/tomatos.

Heres a good question, i was at the pet store and talking to the fish guy about air pumps and air stones. I told him im going to build a dwc and needed a good pump and a good air stone/stones. He told me the long thin ones are crap, and told me to use this
5" round air stone. He said that the long slender ones done aerate enough volume. Anytruth to this. The stones he suggested were called Topfin heres a link to them
Top Fin® Round Airstones - Air Pumps & Accessories - Fish - PetSmart and said to use a topfin airpump, he suggested using this one topfin 8000 170gph its got adjustable flow rate. i couldnt find a link to it, but saw it in person. he said that it would be good to use if i set up multiple dwc chambers(totes, lol i think im making sense here).

Im kinda concerned about nutrients, becuase i dont wanna screw up. what is easiest for begginers, should i do a single step one or a multi step like the flora series.

Question about mounting the pumps and airstone lines. should i drill a hole in the side near the top and feed the line in, and put a sealer around it, or is there a better way to do it?
Thanks for helping me, i look forward to showing you what ive done.

[GpsFrontier]

Here is the product i was refereing 2. 4FT X 4FT JETFLO ECONO W BENC
This looks like it would be a very usefull system. it appears to hold many plants.

Yes that would be very easy to build. Typically that system is used to flood the tray, and you put pots with the plants in the tray. Then when the tray floods it saturates the growing medium in the pots. The thing is algae grows anywhere that gets wet (with nutrients), and gets light. So you may be doing a lot of cleaning the tray out. But you could probably build one like it for about $100, and just about half that would be the pump. Instead of putting pots in the tray, you could design it so you would just fill the whole tray with growing medium, then you wont have the algae problem. But that takes a lot of growing medium, and rotating plants would be a problem. The roots that broke off when you pulled up the plants would decay (rot), and feed pathogens. But some people have good luck with that type of system, and would be simple to build.

He told me the long thin ones are crap

The the thin round ones like this: Bubble Wands, like he said just clog including the flexible ones. It doesn't need to be that shape, but the ones made out of the same type of material like the ones the guy showed you should work fine. That's what I use, though mine aren't round. I'm not familiar with the "topfin" line of pumps, they may be fine. So far I have only been using the ones that Wal-mart sells. But if I had the money I would like to get something like this: Super Luft Pump and/or these High Pressure Aquarium Air Pumps for Deep Water

Im kinda concerned about nutrients, becuase i dont wanna screw up. what is easiest for begginers, should i do a single step one or a multi step like the flora series

The 2 and 3 part nutrients are not difficult. I started with the flora series nutrients myself. I usually just mixed equal parts all 3 at 2 tsp (10mL) per gallon. But for non flowering plants like lettuces I would use something like 3 tsp gro, 2 micro, and 1 bloom. Using the flora series is a good start, but will get expensive after a while. The dry nutrients tend to cost less, but you need to mix them well. I'm experimenting with these and they seem to work well so far. The Verti-Gro Hydroponic Fertilizers and Nutrients - Organic and Hydroponic Growing for Commercial and Hobby Growers

It's a 2 part nutrient, first part is the "hydroponic formula" (fertilizer) the second part is the "calcium nitrate." Both come as a dry mix, you mix 2 pounds each separately into one gallon water jugs. At that point you have both parts pre-mixed as a liquid concentrate (instructions are on the label). Then to make the nutrient solution you mix 1 to 1 1/2 teaspoons (10mL to 15mL) of each part per gallon of water. The label says 1/2 to 3/4 ounces per gallon (1 fluid oz = 30mL).

This is exactly what I have been using:
2 lbs. 5-10-25 Hydroponic Formula, SKU#: F510252, Unit Price: $11.95 (shipping $6.50)
2 lbs. Calcium Nitrate 15-0-0, SKU#: F15002, Unit Price: $8.95 (Shipping $6.00)

This makes 250 gallons of nutrient solution mixed per instructions, more if you mix it weaker. I find a little weaker is usually better, especially the hotter it is. For $20.90 + shipping $12.50 Total: $33.40. But they also have the combo package: Nutrient Combo 4 lbs ea. 5-10-25 & 15-0-0, SKU#: FCombo, for $39.95 (shipping included) $6.50 more than buying them the other way but it makes twice as much.

That makes about 500 gallons of nutrient solution for about $40. The GH flora series makes about 340 gallons when mixed at 10mL (2 tsp) per gallon. But you get even better value if you buy the 25 pound quantitys of the Verti-Gro. Anyhow, that's just what I'm experimenting with right now. I know general hydroponics makes a line of dry nutrients, although I haven't tried them, and I don't know how many gallons they wind up making.

Question about mounting the pumps and airstone lines. should i drill a hole in the side near the top and feed the line in, and put a sealer around it, or is there a better way to do it?

Any time you need to seal a hole, there's a potential for a problem. You will also want to take the line out, for maintenance and cleaning. You wont want to re-glue a line in each time. I just cut a notch at the top (above the water line), and run my air line in from there. Make sure the air pump is a couple feet above the water line, or it could flood the pump. You can use the one way check valves, but they just tend to clog on me. So I just don't bother using check valves, and just keep the pump high enough to keep the water from getting up to it, if the pump looses power.

P.S. I look forward to seeing your systems in action.