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Dallas grow bags coco coir hydro system - help


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Old 01-16-2010, 12:40 AM
TTRgreen2010 TTRgreen2010 is offline
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Default Dallas grow bags coco coir hydro system - help

Hello, I'm near Dallas (zone 8a) and would like a sounding board on my proposed hydro garden. This is my third year tinkering with a garden in the back yard and I think this one might finally be the one. Can anyone offer suggestions on my planned hydro system, please. Tell me why it won't work or tell me what I'm missing but please keep it as close to constructive criticism as you can (I bruise easy!)

The Layout
On the north corner of my lot there is an area that gets good sun till around 5-ish so this will be the site. I'd have a 35 gallon garbage can nearly buried in the clay soil as the reservoir which would be filled with nutrient solution. It's mostly buried to keep the nutrient temps cooler in the Dallas sun, except for about 10 inches or so to keep rain at bay. It would be sealed with its cover, hoses would exit as high up the side as possible and foam insulation would cover the exposed portion of the reservoir. A pump would push the water up a 1/2 inch pipe to a tee, where it is split to feed two nft channels. The reason I have two channels is 1) the area is square shape 2) some plants don't like to grow next to others so I'll separate them into the two channels a few feet apart and hope that's enough separation.

The nft channels would be made from 1x8's or 1x10's screwed together in a "U" shape, elevated by 4x4 posts and sloped towards the reservoir and lined with clear plastic to aid drainage. Inside the channels plants would be in grow bags. Then the channel will be covered with either a double layer of weed control fabric (which is black) or white/black plastic 6 mil draped over the top. There would be slits in the cover where the plants poke through only. The idea is that the water would flow through/down the nft channels where the coco coir should wick enough water to feed the plants and drain back into the reservoir. The cover is to stop algae growth and keep weed seeds and junk out. If I used the white 6mil it would keep roots cooler in the hot sun while reflecting sunlight back up to leaves.

Grow Bags and Medium
I have 10x 2-gallon bags and 10x 3-gallon bags on order (that, the pump, various bits for drip lines and timer are the only parts in my possession today). I'll fill those with 2/3 coco coir and 1/3 perlite or vermiculite for better water retention. In the tomatoes I'll add a cup of dolomite to give them the extra calcium they need (last year I crumbled egg shells in their containers).

What to grow
I'd like to plant tomato, bell pepper, zucchini, cucumber, eggplant, green beans, peas, carrots, green onion, garlic, and maybe a couple of others.

Companion Planting and Natural Pest Control
I am still learning about companion planting and I'll be trying it for the first time this year. Last year I planted broccolli with one of my tomatoes until I found out this will stunt the tomatoes growth. I also had that tomato planted next to a potato which increases chance of cross contaminating with blight.

Carrots will be planted with the tomato to take advantage of the "unused" air space at the base of the tomatoes. Most sources say carrots help tomatoes but I did find one dissenting source so it'll be an experiment. The onion and garlic is to deter ants - they loved my tomatoes last year but didn't seem to cause a big problem. French marigolds are said to repel harmful soil nematodes, aphids, some beetles, tomato hornworms, whitefly and even rabbits but bean plants do not like them. I may sprinkle some peppermint here and there because it's so good in tea but it loves to take over so it may stay in its own small containers.

In the same 3-gallon bag I'll pair a tomato with carrots, onions, basil and parsley. This bag will be next to a bell pepper with basil, parsley, and carrots.

I'll pair cucumber with dill (not near carrots), nasturtium and radishes. I may plant sunflowers in there as well so the cucumber will vine on the sunflower stalk/stem. Maybe. I'd have to keep the sunflower away from the green beans so it may be too much trouble. All this next to:
Zucchini with radish and nasturtium next to:
Beans which will pair with celery and spinach, next to:
Peas
Squash
Eggplant

On and on, you get the idea.

Secondary system, containers
Away from the nft (probably on the patio), in self-watering containers and "regular" containers I'll plant broccoli, spinach, lettuce. If I have any containers left (I only have 6 self-watering and 4 regular containers) I'll add bok choi/pak choi, brussel's sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower and maybe some spices like thyme and oregano, etc.

1. I'd like some suggestions on the companion planting aspect.
2. How far apart do the two channels have to be?
3. Because of the dolomite, is it ok to let the excess water from the tomatoes drain back to reservoir? Has anybody tried it?
4. Should I go ahead with the NFT idea or should I go with my gut and have individual drip lines for each grow bag? (I have 1/4 inch "soaker" hose to snake around the surface)
5. Is a 3-gallon bag big enough for a tomato? Bell Pepper? Zucchini?
6. The sun was so brutal last year, what shade cloth should I use and when should I put it up (don't want to stunt growth but last year tomatoes and peppers just shut down production till it cooled back down again)?
7. Heavy rains last year nearly killed everything, any thoughts on how to protect the plants (the black/white 6mil plastic may help???)
8. On the patio garden, which plants would need to be in self-watering containers and which can stand a bit more variability in their hydration?

Anyway, sorry for the long, long post. I just didn't know how to 'splain it succinctly. I'd appreciate any help or suggestions.

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Old 01-16-2010, 03:54 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Sounds like you are planing quite a garden. First I would like to say I have some designs for using geothermal energy to cool the nutrient solution. These designs are in pdf format and the file size is too large for this forums pdf file size limit, so I cant attach them to the posts. But if anyone wants to send me a private message with their e-mail address I will be happy to e-mail them to you.
Quote:
The nft channels would be made from 1x8's or 1x10's screwed together in a "U" shape, elevated by 4x4 posts and sloped towards the reservoir and lined with clear plastic to aid drainage.
I can see there being maintenance issues here. Lining wood with plastic, I cant see being very durable and the slightest thing can poke holes in the plastic. I would prefer to use plastic rain gutters, they are not expensive and will last much longer.
Quote:
Inside the channels plants would be in grow bags.
I'm not sure if this is the best option for the roots in an NFT system. An NFT system supply's a constant supply of nutrient solution to dangling roots. With growing in bags there would be no dangling roots, so the whole bag will need to sit in the flow of nutrients. They will become waterlogged that way. Is this going to be a recovery system or non recovery system?
Quote:
Then the channel will be covered with either a double layer of weed control fabric (which is black) or white/black plastic 6 mil draped over the top. There would be slits in the cover where the plants poke through only.
I don't really see a problem with this except if there were any issues that required you to take it off for maintenance. Then you may need to cut the slits all the way to work on the system, and replacing it might be a problem.
Quote:
If I used the white 6mil it would keep roots cooler in the hot sun while reflecting sunlight back up to leaves.
You can always use both if funds allow, black on bottom and white on top.
Quote:
I have 10x 2-gallon bags and 10x 3-gallon bags on order
these must be special bags because I am not sure why they would need to be ordered. I live in a small town but I can get bags of this size.
Quote:
I am still learning about companion planting and I'll be trying it for the first time this year.
I think this is a big part of what you want ideas with. This is a good idea but unfortunately I don't have any experience with doing it, nor have I done any research on it. So I can't give any advice about it at this point. I would be interested to know more about it and how it works for you.
Quote:
2. How far apart do the two channels have to be?
I am not sure if this relates to the companion planting or not, I don't know about that part. Although in general I would say they should be far enough apart so you are be able to get to each plant, but close enough to save space. There is always maintenance issues, switching plants, and unexpected maintenance that tends to come up. The easier you can make it on yourself later the better.
Quote:
3. Because of the dolomite, is it ok to let the excess water from the tomatoes drain back to reservoir? Has anybody tried it?
I have never herd of dolomite myself, is this what you are referring to?
Quote:
4. Should I go ahead with the NFT idea or should I go with my gut and have individual drip lines for each grow bag?
Each has its own problems to deal with. Depending on how you run them, clogging and uneven distribution can be a problem in a drip system. On the other hand using bags in an NFT system will become too waterlogged. The coco coir holds moisture very well. Constantly sitting in nutrient solution is a bad idea. You can possibility set it on a timer more like a flood and drain system to give the coco coir a chance to drain.
Quote:
5. Is a 3-gallon bag big enough for a tomato? Bell Pepper? Zucchini?
3 gallon root space for peppers should not be any problem. Tomatoes and zucchini not so sure, I guess it would depend on the variety and how long you plan to grow them. As well as how big you would want them to get.
Quote:
6. The sun was so brutal last year, what shade cloth should I use and when should I put it up (don't want to stunt growth but last year tomatoes and peppers just shut down production till it cooled back down again)?
The shade cloth does not cool the weather, but can/will help with rising temperatures resulting from direct sunlight on the plants and hydroponic system parts. Keep the root zone between 68 and 72 degrees at all times. The plants themselves mostly depend on the variety of plant. Some are heat tolerant versions and will be able to withstand more heat. If the idea is simply cooling the plants and system by blocking light with shade cloth, I would not recommend using a thick shade cloth. The thicker shade cloth blocks more light rays, but I don't think it will do any more good with regards to cooling the plants and will deprive the plants from the light.
Quote:
7. Heavy rains last year nearly killed everything, any thoughts on how to protect the plants (the black/white 6mil plastic may help???)
Grow inside? Not sure I could control mother nature. I am not sure how big of an area you are needing to protect, but you can certainly cover it with plastic before the rains hit and uncover it after. Though the winds may be a problem because they will hit the plastic like a sail, and can do more damage than good if not done right.
Quote:
8. On the patio garden, which plants would need to be in self-watering containers and which can stand a bit more variability in their hydration?
I am a bit unclear hear. How exactly are they being self watered (are you talking about a wick system), and what growing medium are you planing to use for them?
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Old 01-16-2010, 02:42 PM
TTRgreen2010 TTRgreen2010 is offline
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Gps, thanks for the response. You've posed a lot of questions which is great - it helps me to flesh out my own thoughts and work through the problems in my design before I go to the home center, much better than spending a chunk of money on materials that won't work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
I would prefer to use plastic rain gutters, they are not expensive and will last much longer.
That would be great also (much less work for me, too ). Do you have a link to where I can buy these. How wide are they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
An NFT system supply's a constant supply of nutrient solution to dangling roots. ... They will become waterlogged that way.
Good point! I guess it'd be a hybrid ebb & flow plus nft? I'd want to wet the coir completely but not continuously. The pump would run for about 30 minutes duration 1 to 3 times a day, depending on temperature and maybe how windy it is. In practice I'd be playing it by ear, looking at the plants and sticking fingers into the coir to determine duration and number of cycles per day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
Is this going to be a recovery system or non recovery system?
It would be a recovery system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
these must be special bags because I am not sure why they would need to be ordered. I live in a small town but I can get bags of this size.
That would be nice! The hydroponics store in town isn't open during convenient times. I think the owner has a day job? I dunno, I just know that every time I go there the door is locked. Sometimes they put up the closed sign, sometimes it says it's open (but the door is locked and nobody answers to repeated knocking). After 3 or 4 tries I've given up on my local store and just find it more convenient to buy online. They're not the expensive bags that cost $5 apiece, just regular Sunleaves white grow bags with black on the inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
they should be far enough apart so you are be able to get to each plant, but close enough to save space.
I'll probably just end up guessing 4' or 5' apart. There is a lot of info in the web about companion planting and this year will be the first time I've tried to put it into practice. As I understand it, basil should not be planted close to mint as they will stunt each others growth. Beans and Peas should not be planted close to onions (or any of the alliums) because their growth will be stunted. But Tomatoes love to be planted near alliums. Carrots growth will be inhibited if planted with dill but onions will repel the carrot fly. Tomato hornworm is deterred by marigolds, borage and basil. And although it does not pertain to my garden, strawberries can spread a root rot fungus to tomatoes, potatoes and peppers so you never plant near or re-use soil from strawberries for them.

I just don't know if the proximity issues have to do with the soil or the air around the plant (pollen/excreted hormones/"bad Mojo").

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
I have never herd of dolomite myself, is this what you are referring to?
I'm not familiar with it in its natural form. It gives tomato plants more calcium but can be used on all vegetable plants. You may be using a nutrient solution that takes care of the extra Ca requirement for your tomatoes? I've never used dolomite before and am open to suggestions on calcium levels. Here are a couple of links.
True Value stores carry dolomite for use on garden veggies and lawns.
Earthbox recommends it for tomatoes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
The coco coir holds moisture very well. Constantly sitting in nutrient solution is a bad idea. You can possibility set it on a timer more like a flood and drain system to give the coco coir a chance to drain
Sorry. It would be on a timer so as to wet the coir periodically throughout the day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
3 gallon root space for peppers should not be any problem. Tomatoes and zucchini not so sure, I guess it would depend on the variety and how long you plan to grow them. As well as how big you would want them to get.
I've read that you need a 5-gallon bag for tomatoes but commercial greenhouses grow three of them on a 4" x 36" rockwall slab so I am really uncertain about the actual size of the root ball. I hope someone who has used both a 3-gallon and a 5-gallon container will chime in here.

Last year I grew tomato in 1, 2 and 5 gallon containers but I had 2 or 3 in each pot. The plants themselves did not get huge but produced adequate numbers of fruits except when it got to 100 degrees and except the ones in the 1-gallon pot.

The ones in the 1-gallon pot did not do well at all so 1 is definitely too small. The 2-gallon had 2 plants in it and grew about 4' high and produced fewer than 20 medium size tomatoes all season. The 3 plants in the 5 gallon each grew about 5' tall and produced the most tomatoes but I'd like to do better this year of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
The shade cloth does not cool the weather, but can/will help with rising temperatures resulting from direct sunlight on the plants and hydroponic system parts. Keep the root zone between 68 and 72 degrees at all times.
Agreed. Both the tomatoes and peppers got sun scald last year so I hope to avoid that this year with a little shading. I am not sure if I need 20%, 30% or 40% shade cloth to protect them.

I had hoped that keeping the nutrient temp lower may help a bit as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
[re plastic rain covers] I am not sure how big of an area you are needing to protect, but you can certainly cover it with plastic before the rains hit and uncover it after. Though the winds may be a problem because they will hit the plastic like a sail, and can do more damage than good if not done right.
I may steal an idea from someone on this site and erect a frame out of 2x4s and staple clear plastic covering the entire channel. I would definitely remove it when not needed, though.

I wondered if anyone had used the 6mil as a protective mulch as I described above and if that can be helpful in keeping the roots from getting waterlogged. I thought of having two pieces, each strapped down the length of the channel, one on the left side and one on the right, draped over the channel and overlapping. The precision of matching the slits on both sides for the plants to grow out through may be too much for me to attempt though.

As far as rain goes I don't think the leaves and fruits themselves would be too badly harmed even by a Dallas downpour but due to excess water in the root zone. Our rain almost killed my tomatoes last year - all the fruit was destroyed (popped or cracked) and the leaves turned yellowish and were drooping. It got even worse for them as my staking system failed (store-bought tomato cage) and the plants eventually all drooped over completely after 3 days of rain. Poor little things, this was in August or Sept and I almost gave up on them but I increased feeding a bit and pruned off some damage and they all came back.

On the December 2nd we got our first real freeze and there were probably 15 or so green tomatoes on the vines that I forgot to bring in.
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Old 01-16-2010, 03:23 PM
TTRgreen2010 TTRgreen2010 is offline
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Default re the container garden

Quote:
Originally Posted by GpsFrontier View Post
How exactly are they being self watered (are you talking about a wick system), and what growing medium are you planing to use for them?
I'm using generic planters that function similar to Earthboxes. 4 are 24"L x 12"W x 12"H and the other 2 are 2-gallon round containers. They all have a water reservoir in the bottom separated from the medium by a mesh/screen. The soil/medium is the wick.

Check out the link above for further info but I planned on using the hydro nutrients for the container garden. It worked out fairly well last year if I alternated hydro nutes with Earth Juice Catalyst in weekly feedings. I started that after the rain nearly killed everything and it all bounced back almost imediately. By way of comparison, the plants I kept on soil fertilizer never came back and I ended up chopping them off at the roots.

Coco coir will be the medium in those as well.
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Old 01-16-2010, 05:53 PM
GGM GGM is offline
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pvc/vinyl fence posts and caps are what you are after for NFT. As far as companion growing I think that is more for soil growing than hydroponics.
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Old 01-16-2010, 09:59 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
That would be great also (much less work for me, too ). Do you have a link to where I can buy these. How wide are they?
Here is a link that I found, but they are very common and you should be able to find them at any home improvement store. Home Depot and Lowes both have a whole isle dedicated to them. Plastmo - Rainware System

Another option is to use the 4 inch ADS tubing found by the P.V.C. tubing (it is used for irrigation), and either cut it longways in half to make 2 pieces or just cut out what you need along the top. It runs about $8 for a 10 foot piece. If you need it wider you can get 6 or 8 inch P.V.C. tubing from a pluming supply house. It's a little more expensive though, the 6 inch wide tubing I got here ran about $1.78 a foot.
Quote:
That would be nice! The hydroponics store in town isn't open during convenient times. I think the owner has a day job? I dunno, I just know that every time I go there the door is locked.
We don't even have a hydroponics store here in town. I was just thinking of using regular trash bags, and if they are not thick enough just double or triple them up. It wouldn't matter the color if you were going to cover them up anyway. If not you can use a black one to block light then a white one over it to reflect light.
Quote:
I've never used dolomite before and am open to suggestions on calcium levels.
I will need to look into the dolomite and info about the calcium levels. I am not sure that is an issue with the flora series of nutrients I use.
Quote:
I've read that you need a 5-gallon bag for tomatoes but commercial greenhouses grow three of them on a 4" x 36" rockwall slab so I am really uncertain about the actual size of the root ball.
Tomato plant sizes can vary greatly from small container variety's to the large beefsteak variety's. Commercial operations also usually train the plants and cut all the suckers off, so they basically only have one vine growing upward per plant. Their root systems don't get nearly as big doing that either. They also swap out the plants much sooner. As soon as they harvest they have another new plant to replace it with. My rule of thumb is to give the plants as much root space as I can, hopefully without costing a lot in growing medium.
Quote:
I had hoped that keeping the nutrient temp lower may help a bit as well.
I don't know what the temp of your nutrients were, but I have learned that if you cant keep their temperature under control there is no point to trying to grow anything. That's what lead to the demise of my plants last summer. The Geothermal designs I have will take care of that for me this year.
Quote:
I wondered if anyone had used the 6mil as a protective mulch as I described above and if that can be helpful in keeping the roots from getting waterlogged.

As far as rain goes I don't think the leaves and fruits themselves would be too badly harmed even by a Dallas downpour but due to excess water in the root zone.
I may be a little confused here but I think the idea is to use the 6mil protective mulch to block light to help stop algae as well as to block rain water from getting to the roots. If you are planing to use what I am thinking of, it will block the light but it allows water to go right through it.
Quote:
I'm using generic planters that function similar to Earthboxes. 4 are 24"L x 12"W x 12"H and the other 2 are 2-gallon round containers. They all have a water reservoir in the bottom separated from the medium by a mesh/screen. The soil/medium is the wick.
Yes this is a wick system. This may be a bit difficult to control the the moisture level of the growing medium if the medium itself is the wick. If the medium is touching the water it will suck it up real fast saturating the medium. If it is not touching the water it wont be able to suck anything up. You may want to leave the water level below the medium so it is not touching, and then use some nylon felt material cut into long strips for a wick. Otherwise I fear that the medium will become to saturated and water log the roots.
Quote:
pvc/vinyl fence posts and caps are what you are after for NFT.
Generally that is what most people use, but you wont be able to get the bags inside them very easily. The rain gutters have 3 sides and you can get an optional top portion that clips right on top, that would make maintenance and cleaning much easier. You can also use the rain gutter down spout tubes instead of the fence post tubes. The down spouts are not usually square but will lay down flat just fine, just cut holes in the top side to place the baskets into. The rain gutters are usually cheaper than the fence post tubing also. If needing more root space I would suggest using the ADS irrigation tubing I mentioned earlier. How big do you need the trough the bags will be resting in to be?
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Old 01-17-2010, 09:37 AM
TTRgreen2010 TTRgreen2010 is offline
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What nutrients are best for use with coco coir?

Gps mentioned the GH Flora series. Anyone agree or disagree with that?
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Old 01-17-2010, 07:20 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
What nutrients are best for use with coco coir?
The coco coir or coco chips wont make a difference to what nutrients you use. Because the coco coir does not have any nutrients in it, so it cant affect the nutrients you use. It's also pH neutral so it wont affect any pH stabilizers or adjusters in your nutrient solution. You just want to make sure it is rinsed real well. I understand they use salt in processing it, and most manufactures rinse it well before they package it. I rinse it well myself just to be sure, and to take as much of the color out as I can. The color wont hurt anything, but I try to get as much out as I can anyway.

I could be wrong but as far as the hybrid NFT system , I was basically picturing the regular trash bags with as much growing medium as you wanted in them. Tie it closed, make a bunch of holes in the bottom so it can wick up the nutrient solution, then lay the bags in the rain gutters with the holes on the bottom of the gutters, making sure it is situated so that it's sturdy and wont fall out. Then make a small hole in the top to place the plant in.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:24 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Thought I would post what I have found out so far about adding calcium for tomato's.

Some forms of tomatoes are notoriously heavier calcium feeders than others. Heirlooms in Hydro, are typically more heavy on the Ca feeding. If you have a greenhouse hybrid, they are typically less heavy feeders on the Ca. Since Calcium and Magnesium are important in allowing the uptake of the other ingredients, you want to make sure you supplement the plants needs in those areas. Calcium effects the plant's ability to uptake all sorts of nutrients. This is why it's recommended to supplement with Calcium when growing plants that consume a lot of it (such as tomatoes).

You most likely won't be able to pinpoint a Calcium deficiency on the plant, because it can appear as a plethora of other deficiencies. Nutrition in Hydroponics is a building block philosophy. Once you have low concentrations of one element, the rest react differently to other elements, and this can start a chain of lockout.

There are CaMg supplements on the market and they would be the best way to specifically add Ca/Mg without raising the concentrations of other nutrients. General Hydroponics makes one called CaMg+ that runs about $15 for quart. Starting low and working up, like 5ml/gallon. Then if you notice a need for more, add more. until you find the zone that's right for them. I haven't looked into other manufactures of this supplement though I'm sure their are many.

As for the dolomite, I have not had time to find out much more about it. Although I do have a few of concerns with it. First, I'm not sure if it's water soluble or not. If it's not completely water soluble the plants wont be able to use it. Soil nutrients generally breakdown/biodegrade in soil slowly converting it into a water soluble nutrient. But without the soil to break it down, it would need to be water soluble to begin with.

Second, if you do use it, I would not add it directly to the growing medium. But rather use it as an additive to the nutrient solution instead. There would just be no good way to control the amount and concentrations. If you didn't get the exact amount right from the start you can add way to much, possibly doing more damage to the plants than good. And because as it dissolves you would be making a higher concentration of it in the nutrient solution with every cycle, resulting in a constantly changing concentration of it. If you just add it in the nutrient solution directly you wont have either problem. Also if there is a problem with it you don't need to change all your growing medium, just the solution.

Lastly, I'm not sure what it would do to would PH levels. In the description on the link it says "Corrects Soil PH." This tells me it's not pH neutral, and I would fear that you will be constantly trying to adjust the pH.
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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 01-19-2010 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:39 PM
TTRgreen2010 TTRgreen2010 is offline
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The General Hydroponics Flora series nutrients is pretty popular and seems to contain a fair amount of calcium.

Any suggestions on using the Flora series with coco coir?
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:44 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Any suggestions on using the Flora series with coco coir?
Just mix it the same as you would for any other growing medium, nothing special.
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:02 PM
eduardomachado eduardomachado is offline
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interesting and educational post

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