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#21
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Just a quick rattle of the cage! I came across this quote recently - Quote:
Cheers, Errol |
#22
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You're always welcome!
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1. First of all, we falsely believe (sometimes) that plants always take up what we feed them with a nutrient solution, just like chicken, cats or dogs. But osmosis is more complicated than mammal feeding and digestion. Plants take up a. what they need, b. choose from what there actually is in a nutrient solution, - and finally c. what the process of (rather complicate) osmosis allows them to take up in condition X. But In case there is too little nitrogen in a solution, plants my take it up very quickly and perhaps the PH will change and the nutrients will be unbalanced. That's what will happen basically and repeatedly... 2. BER is not caused by bullish growth all along the season or over time, but actually happens only A. with fruiting stage B. due of a lack of adequate calcium transport (which could either be caused by a actual lack of Ca, or a problem due to immobility of Ca.) and finally C. due to high temperature which leads to high plant metabolism and excessive vegetative growth. What actually happens when BER occurs, is that due to (temporary or sudden) heat, plant metabolism increases drastically but the immobile element Ca isn't transported and delivered quick enough to the tomato fruit. Bullish- or excessive vegetative growth itself is (or can be) partially responsible though, as huge amounts of N and Ca are consumed here. And hence there is not enough (slow moving) calcium available (left) for a healthy development of the tomato fruit. 3. Nitrogen levels as low as 60-70 ppm in the early season (as quoted) do not prevent BER for 2 reasons. A. most of the calcium provided in any nutrient solution comes necessarily from calcium nitrate. Thus, to provide enough calcium, we anyway need to keep Nitrogen at a certain level. B. BER doesn't happen at the early state nor in the middle nor later, but actually only when fruits are developing. That is why (as far as N-levels are concerned) we need to not exceed 150 ppm at any time - but actually neither at fruiting stage. 4. To prevent BER with tomato, the nutrient solution has to: A. not exceed Nitrogen levels of 140-160 ppm during any stage B1. contain enough calcium (140-160 ppm) all along. B2. Supplementary calcium can be provided (max 0f 15-20%) through CaCl C. temperature has to be kept under 34- (max 37°C) for best oxygenation and uptake (of calcium) D. PH should be (especially at fruiting state) around 6.5 or slightly over (also for best uptake of calcium which decreases gradually under 6.5). 5. One generally tends to confuse concentration of a nutrient (EC) and ppm content of each element. Imagine an Energy Drink that is too sweet for your taste. You would simply dilute it 50/50 with mineral water but actually drink only one glass (half of it) - what will you get? Half of the sugar (or substitute) of course, but also only half of the sodium, magnesium, potassium and all other salts and trace elements. As a sub-consequence, your lack of minerals in your "system" would not be topped up adequately, but only get half as much as recommended by nutrition science! Have a closer look at the chart I provided earlier (in another thread) and which describes a rather low feeding, step by step feeding strategy worked out by research at the University of FLORIDA (not California). Now take the 5th cluster formula and cut it in half (as in using half strength) . You'll end up with 75 ppm of Nitrogen, but only 75 ppm of Ca, 25 P, 25 Mg and half of the Fe and all other trace elements. And while N-content may be OK for seedlings and small plants, all of the other will simply not be sufficient for very long! I know this is kind of a cross between a no-brainer and high level nutrient science, but that's actually how it looks and finally works! Appendix: 1. Tomatoes that are grown in cooler climates or kept cool with artificial help are less prone to BER, because very high metabolism and too excessive growth (due to heat) are less to be expected. 2. Calcium supply can be supplemented with foliar spray of CaCl as a preventive cure while the use of foliar spray as treatment (in case of outbreak) cannot actually cure BER. 3. Some strategies prevent excessive growth by pruning lateral shoots and even other parts of the foliage. It is said that only the foliage located close to the fruit cluster can deliver (or complement) nutrients to the fruits, - any others are actually useless from a physiological point of view. Which is certainly true for calcium anyway, as it moves too slowly (as learned earlier). 4. Some tomato cultivars are more prone to BER than others. There are even special greenhouse varieties (Holland) that tolerate extra high feeding (with much higher Nitrogen levels as well) and "bullish" growth and heat, without being affected (easily) by BER. Unfortunately these varieties tend to lack other qualities like originality or taste. Last edited by Luches; 10-27-2009 at 09:35 AM. Reason: corrected FLORIDA (from California) |
#23
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HS796/CV216: Nutrient Solution Formulation for Hydroponic (Perlite, Rockwool, NFT) Tomatoes in Florida Anyway, thanks for you comments. You've convinced me to stick with the mix you suggested before and keep the EC at 1.8 period. I've managed, after a surprisingly wide search to find a supplier in Victoria who will sell me a manageable quantity of calcium chloride without charging the earth. So it will shortly be possible to introduce a Ca supplement to the nutrient. You are extraordinarily knowledgeable on the subject of plant chemistry and your comments on this thread have made lots of sense and expanded my own knowledge quite a bit. One thing I think I've learned is to be a little more careful feeding my plants. In the past I've pretty much tossed in roughly equal measures of Hydrosol and calcium nitrate and been happy to let the EC wander around between 1.5 and 2.5. I've now made up some carefully measured (by weight) stock solutions and will keep the EC close to 1.8. Hopefully there'll be some good results. Were you able to find the photos I mentioned? They're in an album on this forum. Best wishes, Errol |
#24
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But look, while I agree 100% with their actual nutrient strategy, which I recommend - I still can't agree with that rather anecdotic (quoted) introduction. It gives (at least could give) one a really wrong idea of the actual facts and doesn't match the strategy explained and shown later in the very same article. But then again I did a mistake here too, when I was "wrongly" anticipating that a "60-70 ppm N formula" actually was supposed to be some sort of a "half strength standard formula". Because (in their formula table) they truly respect the needed P, Mg, Ca, as well as all Micro nutrients in the required amounts. Although what I wrongly anticipated could serve you well to not make the mistake to wrongly anticipate the very same thing! Gotcha No debate necessary here, I've had my part in that realm... Quote:
PS: please also note that what is true in warm Florida climate, isn't necessarily true in Tasmania. You're better off with a bit stronger nutrient concentration over there. But I don't need to remind you that you shouldn't start your seedlings with 1.8, - but with some 1.2-1.3 EC as suggested initially, right!? As you can't follow a sophisticated step by step nutrient program as the one of U.o.F,- you need to compromise somehow... Cheers, Luches |
#25
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Here's the photo link, nothing to get excited about. You might notice the curl in the older tomato leaves. Happens every year and doesn't seem to worry the plants, but whether it's a sign of a deficiency I'm not sure.
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...droponics.html Cheers, Errol |
#26
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Unfortunately: Invalid Album specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator
Edit: This soft is really starting to p. me off. I opened your user profile again to check if I did miss something the last 3 times I checked for those pics. No link to any album from there. I opened the picture section, no search option, no way to get to any user's album or pictures either. Only recent adds available! General search with Errol, album, no way to get to those pics either! Furthermore, you need to take care like hell to not hit any of the zillion google adds by mistake Last edited by Luches; 10-28-2009 at 04:02 AM. |
#27
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Hmm, don't know what's happening........the link works fine when I try it this end. Here it is again.
http://www.hydroponicsonline.com/for...droponics.html Don't lose any sleep over it though, it's just a few piccies of my setup and I doubt you'll learn anything new! Errol |
#28
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I won't, but it's not about learning something new actually, but I have a personal interest in what you were building there and if you did well about it. |
#29
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OK, that's a strange one. If you're happy to let me have an email address I'll send them to you direct if you wish. But we're all entitled to our privacy and anonymity on these forums and if you prefer not to, or can think of some other way to view them, that will be fine with me!
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#30
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I've changed the album type from private to public to see if that makes any difference to accessibility from your PC.
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#31
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Looks good, thanks! |
#32
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Just a followup
Hi there Luches,
Just a followup from the help you gave me some time ago. I've persevered (well, it wasn't hard ) with the changes you recommended to my formula and all is going very well indeed. I've noticed particularly that root crops (carrots and beetroot) seem to be developing earlier than usual. Strawberries are very flavoursome despite a lower EC (1.8) than in previous years. Tomatoes are colouring nicely and I'll be interested to see whether they have a good flavour too or whether I'll need to give them an occasional individual drink at a higher EC. All other crops (cucumber, beans, leeks, capsicum and silver beet are doing exceptionally well. We've had a warm summer in Tasmania this year and I guess that's helping. Hope is all well in your neck of the woods. Cheers, Errol |
#33
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Glad to hear you doing fine with your culture (and with my recommendations) - that's for sure. Also good to have some clearly positive feedback for a change. I am actually growing tomatoes with this very same concentration of 1.8. And other setups with so called semi domesticated peppers and some local capsicum frutescens between 1.4 and 1.6 only. They're all doing very fine. My various seed amaranths seem to be happy with high potassium formulas as well.
I guess it wouldn't do any harm to feed your (or my) toms at a bit higher EC, but the question is indeed if they'd do better or taste better at that end of the equation. From my understanding it's (as mentioned earlier) genetics in combination with weather conditions, temperatures etc., that does 80% of the taste. To really be sure if there would be a difference, you'd have to run two very same setups near each other with different nutrient strengths. And then again I guess you'd need to go higher with one group, as I suspect there would not be much difference between 1.8 and 2.0 EC anyways, if ever there would be any. Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been off duty for a while here, because of some rather pointless beefs |
#34
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Hydroponic system
Hi, I am curious to know the Hrdroponic system you are using if possible a little sketch or photograph.You have said laundry buckets! As a beginner, your reply is valuable to me.Thank you.
narul |
#35
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Apologies
Dear Narul,
My sincere apologies. I had no idea you had requested a reply from me and you're probably thinking what a rude sod I am for not replying. In point of fact, I has assumed the discussion between Luches and I had come to an end and I didn't check this site again until tonight (almost 4 years later!) when I wanted to confirm some quantities Luches had suggested. If you're still interested in any information I can provide, even if it's years after you initially requested it, I'm only too happy to oblige. Once again, (very) belated apologies. Grant (Errol) |
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nitrogen, nutrient solution, strawberries |
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