Home | Store | Blog | Forums | FAQs | Lesson Plans | Pictures |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
outdoors commercial setup, input needed
Hi all, new visitor first time poster.
I am planning an outdoors commercial operations in Seville, Spain. The setup I am planning will be about 7 hectares of NFT/ aeroponics when it is in full production but due to economic constraints I will start with about 0.1 hectares only. I plan to purchase a few cheap plastic greenhouses for seeding purposes and then move them outdoors when in vegetative. Later I will setup a few real greenhouses for production during November-February. What I am thinking mostly is the ground: should I put plastic wrap on it first? In just the greenhouses or on the fields aswell? Another thing: how long will the NFT/ Aeroponics units last outdoors in the scorching spanish sun? Can I run a septic dispersal under plastic? It does not seem proper to me. Thankful for any responses. |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
doser for multiple lines?
I bump the thread with a new question:
Is there a good doser on the market for use on multiple lines? I won't have electricity at first so it can't be too consuming or too expensive. The alternative is to set up one for each line but given that I won't have good theft protection on the property it feels awkward. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Hello jon1978,
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Second, even if your using a Injectors/dosers, you could install it before a manifold that splits the water line into as many lines as you need. As long as it can handle the water volume. If not you can get a higher output injector and/or use more than one. Either way, you would install it/them between the water source, and manifold that runs a feed line to each tube/gully. But you will need electricity. I believe they are basically just a low voltage solenoid, that open and close based on water flow, so you may be able to easily set up a battery bank to run them off of. Then charge the battery bank with a trickle charger that automatically regulates voltage (so they don't overcharge the batteries), as well as charge them using solar cells to charge them or as a back up if the power goes out. The injectors wont use much power at all, but you'll want to calculate how much power you'll need for the pumps and fans etc. etc. also, to figure how many batteries you'll need and solar cells you'll need to keep them charged. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
It will be a circulating system but running from a reservoir with a computer controlled nutritient, pH and EC management. I won't be able to maintain a good crop without 24/7 control of that. What I want is to use several different chains with different crops and in the beginning preferably one controller for all chains. I know one from Agro that does it but if it is too expensive I will probably go with one like Bluelab for each chain. I am mostly concerned about theft before I can maintain good security. Quote:
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
First, Injectors aren't intended to be used in recirculating systems. Their intended to inject a concentrated nutrient into a flow of fresh water only. That creates a nutrient solution and eliminates the need for a large reservoir of circulating nutrient solution.
The problem with collecting that water in a reservoir, and recirculating it again through the injectors is the nutrient strength will continually go up and up into toxic levels quickly. How do you plan to solve this problem? If you want to grow multiple crops, with different nutrient needs, you'll need multiple reservoirs. The problem with using one reservoir and injecting different nutrients or levels into the nutrient solution in the line to different crops and recirculating it back to a central reservoir is all the different nutrients and/or levels will mix together. Not only does that defeat your purpose of separate nutrient levels, but it still has the issue of the nutrient strength continually going up and up into toxic each time the nutrient solution passes through the injectors. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
The reason for choosing reservoirs is primarily water consumption but I am not competely sure I will go for it as I already have a pressurized system from the Guadalquivir river and as I don't have power it might be easier for the aeroponics units. I am probably going to go reservoirs for the NFT and pressured for the aeroponics. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
On smaller scale recirculating systems, they simply change the nutrient solution regularly to ensure a balanced nutrient solution. On large scale recirculating and water culture systems where it's not reasonable to change out large volumes of water regularly. Either the water or the plant's foliage is lab tested (regularly) to determine if the nutrient solution is balanced. If not, then only the depleted mineral salts are added back. Through regular testing it's fairly easy to see a pattern in order to add specific mineral salts at specific times to maintain a balanced nutrient solution for a specific crop.
Typically with computer controlled systems that use a reservoir the EC and pH is monitored and/or adjusted in the reservoir. Not in feed lines to plants unless the system/computer is capable of determining and adjusting the injection ratio variables on a continues basis. But plants don't use nutrients evenly, they take what they need and leave the rest. That means even if your EC readings are at the same level when your nutrients were fresh, over time the balance of those nutrients will change. Eventually you will have deficiencies of some, and others will be at toxic levels, even though the EC reading is exactly the same. That's why injectors aren't typically used in recirculating systems except to adjust pH, or add specific mineral salts at specific times that are known to be depleted quicker through lab testing. Each different mineral salt and pH adjustor (up/down) will need it's own injector and feed lines. Quote:
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
#9
|
||||||
|
||||||
Hello
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Computers are connected to sensors that can monitor specific variables (temp, pH, EC, co2 etc..) Depending on your computer controlled environment agriculture software system. The computer is given set parameters, and when the readings go above the max or below the minimum parameter, the computer notifies a HUMAN. In some cases it can turn on or off other systems to bring the readings back in range. But when it comes to nutrient levels, there is a lot more than just EC readings to consider. If you expect your computer system to be able control the level of each mineral element, well good luck. I haven't seen a system that can do that. Most systems will only turn on and off an injector for a specific time period that you programed it to go on for based on the water flow and EC level you set. But this only applies to NON-RECIRCULATING systems only. Each time the water passes by the sensor/injector the same amount of nutrients will be added over again and again each time. More expensive and sophisticated systems might be able to read EC and adjust the on and off time and/or flow rate of the injector to vary the amount of nutrient being added to raise and lower EC levels (that is lower EC in NON-RECIRCULATING systems only). In recirculating systems all it can do is keep the injectors from adding more nutrients even if the EC continues to rise, and regardless of what nutrients are actually in the nutrient solution. Large company's that use recirculating systems use computer systems to monitor parameters, and have a qualified full time person to take readings, monitor plant growth, and make needed adjustments to the nutrient solution as needed. As I said before Non-recirculating systems are where injectors are typically used. In non-recirculating systems the flow rate of the injectors is set to create a specific EC (of balanced nutrient solution) in a flow of fresh water that is sent to the feed lines going to the plants. By NOT recirculating it you ensure the plants are getting a balanced nutrient nutrient solution all the time. The water line is controlled by a cycle timer that precisely turns on and off the water flow down to the second, that makes sure there is very little wasted water/nutrient solution. Quote:
Quote:
What size reservoir are you planing, and what size and how many plants is it supposed to feed? |
#10
|
||||||
|
||||||
The injector would simply prepare the nutrition content in the reservoir between 3 and 5 AM. It doesn't have to be an actual injector, it can be a pump or whatever, I just state my desire for a controller, not the actual injector or solenoid or pump or what have you.
If you run a non-circulating system you would need 100% of the nutrition to be utilized in one run in order to be profitable, if you recirculate the nutrition over a day it will most likely be more uniform because the nutrition content gradually goes down over the day as the plants use it. Quote:
I am thinking of building my own PLC using a standard industrial platform and incorporate nutritient meters for N, P and K which eliminates the entire problem you describe anyway. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Have you ever grown any plants hydroponically before??? I don't mean that sarcastically. I just see so many problems in your statements that it simply leads me to believe you don't have any practical experience growing plants hydroponically. If you want to build your own automation system, that's fine, good luck with that. But you'll be wasting a lot of time and money withough't having the first hand growing experience first.
Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-17-2015 at 07:09 AM. |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
No but I got an A.A.S degree in horticulture and I have also studied aquaponics. I have also run several businesses earlier, including an e-commerce with a rather large workload, so I when I say I need automation it is not only because of it is "something I have read somewhere", it is based on actual experience. Small businesses cannot run large operations without automation. Every hour I use to do menial tasks is an hour less on actual quality control.
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
I didn't think so, now that explains a lot. It's great that you have different degrees, and studied different things etc.. And I'm not saying that automation shouldn't be used. But you need to know where and how to do it best. And there are so many things that you simply need to learn by doing that you will never get from a book. You need to learn that first in order to learn the best way/s you can automate/streamline your production.
You have a big learning curve ahead, if you spend the time and money now to try and reinvent the wheel before you even know how the car works, you'll be wasting both your time and money. Set your plans on hold for at least a year while you grow some plants and get that much needed first hand experience, and in all 4 seasons. If you choose not to, at least get some advice and help from a well established local company that specializes in helping hydroponic farmers grow their crops. Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-17-2015 at 07:41 AM. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
I don't have playroom for doing everything myself because I have to pay for the land and the equipment which on top of two wages will be required of me to do other things than spending every night at the farm. Besides, if I don't have automation I won't even know if the water is running. The farm will be more than 5 km from my apartment, it has to be automated in order to maintain the health of the plants. So the setup I am thinking of is something like this: 2x pH 2x EC 2x temperature 1x natrium 1x potassium 1x phosphorus 2x controller pumps for nutrition tanks 1x controller pump for pH 1x controller pump for EC 2 solenoid controls for water level in reservoir 1x pump control 2x water flow sensors flush valve for draining the reservoir USB maybe wifi a simple i/o touchscreen If I get it to work I can post the parts list, I don't think it will cost more than 1000-2000 USD if I shop around. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
What good is all that when your plants die? The company's that sell greenhouses and custom manufacture hydroponic nutrients usually have consulting programs. It may seem like a unnecessary expense now, but you'll save yourself years of trouble and dead (unsellable) plants. Not to mention a butt load of money. You want to dive into an Olympic sizes swimming pool without waiting for it to be full of water first. You just don't have the practical experience about the basics yet.
Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-17-2015 at 08:18 AM. |
#16
|
|||
|
|||
I don't understand your point. The plants will have a better chance of survival if I can monitor the system 24/7. I cannot live at the farm because it is not zoned for residential. That means I have to leave the farm to go back to my house to sleep etc. Automation is essential, I cannot run it without it, it is as simple as that.
What you are implying is that I should try without it but if so I certainly risk the health of the plants the first night I am home sleeping. |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I see you have your heart set on proceeding with your plans regardless of how flawed they are. Your skipping over problems like you don't think they will ever exist. And those are the basics you need to learn first. You'll learn one way or another, I just wanted to shorten up your learning curve, and save you time and money. A year or two later you will wish you'd fallowed my advice. But I wish you the best of luck. |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
I think this discussion is turning stupid and I have had more interesting input in other forums. If one water pump fails and I am not there to see it the plants die, period. A computer can warn me by sending me a text message. Your main point seems to be that it is more important that I learn to mix the nutritients by hand than having a system that warns me of problems before they kill the plants simply because your opinion.
You are trying to tell me that a 2000 dollar system is overkill when the harvest is worth more? What do you think 10 hectare agricultural land cost in Europe btw? |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
You have a lot to learn, good luck....
|
Bookmarks |
Tags |
aero, commercial, nft, outdoors |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|