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best system for tomatoes?


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  #1  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:41 PM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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Default best system for tomatoes?

ive decided to start splitting my systems up.. the hps lights on a smaller scale are inexpensive enough, and the efficiency is great enough that i can start growing vegetables with individual systems, and im going to start out with a tomato plant

for about $30 i can get a 100w HPS light which produces roughly 10,000 lumens, which should allow me to comfortable grow a tomato plant

my intention is to grow this thing in a 5 gallon bucket perhaps.. possibly with a drip system, or maybe even just deep water culture.. but thats my question

im either going to cage or trelis the tomato plant to keep it smaller, more compact... so im wondering which specific tomato varieties would have a greater yield in a smaller area?

another question.. do tomato plants do better in deep water culture, drip, or ebb and flow?

and lastly... when the tomato is to size... which light is going to allow me to grow fruits faster?.. hps, or metal halide?... i hear the MH lamps of an equal wattage will grow fruits faster where the hps of the same wattage will grow the green bits faster?.. is this true?.. and if so, would the MH be better for a fruit bearing plant like tomatoes.. while the HPS lights i should reserve for lettuces and such?

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  #2  
Old 06-18-2011, 11:51 PM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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seems i was a tad mistaken on HPS vs MH... so ill use HPS... will 100w actually work or will i need a 150w bulb?
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:07 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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I was going to mention that You had the uses for MH and HPS backward, but I guess you have that figured out. I know a lot of people like using water culture for growing tomatoes, and even though I have grown tomato's in a flood and drain, I would prefer using a drip system for them myself (as well as most large plants). A drip system is easy, and much more forgiving.

P.S.
Have you considered florescent lighting for lettuce?
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:24 PM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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well... DWC seems simple if im using a 5 gallon bucket with a hole cut in the lid to drop a net pot into... then all i really need is a little aquarium pump and some way to measure the level of the water without opening it

however, that aeration pump would be constantly running, i think a drip system works on a timer.. so its running less, but requires a timer, a bit of a tradeoff i guess

which size net pot would be neccessary to hold a tomato plant grown in a 2x2 foot cage?

also.. heres a little drip vs dwc question... should power fail, what will die out quicker?.. dwc wouldnt be able to aerate the liquid, and drip wouldnt be able to supply it
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Old 06-20-2011, 06:54 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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The air pump running 24/7 wont even be noticeable on your electric bill, so I wouldn't worry about the electricity use. If you want to tell for yourself use this Electricity Cost Calculator, all you need to know is the wattage, and cents/kw-hr that's easily found on your electric bill. Then just put 24 in the section for hours, multiply the total by 30, and that will tell you what it cost to run it for an entire month. If the box dosen't have the wattage listed, multiply the amperage by the voltage, and that will give you the wattage. I don't have the box for my air pumps but I'll use the High volume air pump I linked in the to in the other thread as an example. That pump is 66 watts, and I pay 9.29 cents per kw-hr (that includes the base charge as well as surcharges). Using the calculator I linked to, that pump would cost me $0.15 (15 cents) to run all day long, $0.15x 30= $4.50 a month 24/7 all month long. The air pump/s you'll need wont be annoyware near that wattage. Found it, here's the air pump I grew my 8 lettuce plants with in a water culture system Tetra Whisper 60 Aquarium Air Pump - AquaCave (I got it at wal mart for about $12). Look under specifications, that air pump is only 4 watts. At the rate per kw-hr I pay, that pump only costs me $0.30 per month to run 24/7 all month long.

As for what size basket to use for a 2 foot tomato plant in a water culture system (bucket). Well I would probably use something like a 4-5-6 inch basket. But there are a lot of people who would say you can use a basket as small as 2 inches. And it probably would be OK for that small of a tomato plant, especially if your planing to support the foliage. But I just like having more growing medium around the main root-ball myself (again because it's more forgiving for the plant).


P.S.
I get heavy duty timers (15 amp) at Kmart for about $7. My largest water pump has a maximum pumping height of 8.7 feet, and will pump a max volume of 500 gallons per-hour, and is only 35 watts. So even if I had it running all day (24 hours), it would only cost me 8 cents (or $2.40 to run 24/7 for 30 days).

Quote:
heres a little drip vs dwc question... should power fail, what will die out quicker?.. dwc wouldnt be able to aerate the liquid, and drip wouldnt be able to supply it
That would depend on a lot of variables, but in general I would say the plants in a drip system not getting any water at all for days would probably completely die before plants in a un-aerated water culture system that had plenty of water. The biggest factors being temperature, the type of growing medium used in the drip system, as well as how much growing medium is used, and relative humidity. As well as how much water volume is in the water culture system, and how big the plants are in either system. I live in the desert where relative humidity is very low most of the year (below 10%), and I often forgot to plug back in the pump to the timer after I did something to my broccoli plants (the same ones I linked to in the other thread that were in the 5 gallon buckets, that was a drip system). I used coco chips as a growing medium for them, and coco chips hold moisture better than most growing mediums. And even on days that neared 100 degrees, I saw no singes of wilting from those full grown plants over 24 hours later when I noticed that I forgot to plug the pump in the next day.
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Old 06-20-2011, 12:43 PM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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well them.. im going to go deep water culture with a 5-6 inch pot... im going to build a box around the bucket with one side exposed.. that side might have a cage in front of it to keep it growing up in the box

the box will be line with white poster board, and the light will be mounted to shine from the side so that the entire plant will get even light, not just the top

in total for cost of electricity and nutrients, this is about a $10/month project in cost for the amount of tomatoes itll hopefully put out

now i just need to find a really high yielding indeterminate tomatoe plant to grow... would be nice of an heirloom variety worked, but as long as it was good for sauces as well as sandwiches it would be good
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:38 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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so... anyone know a good heirloom plants that produces a high enough yield to do well in hydroponics?
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:51 AM
perzyk perzyk is offline
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100 or 150 watt HPS or MH is way to small. It will work for small plants but once your into heavy veging with a thick canopy your simply not going to get the penetration that the plant needs. I wouldn't go any smaller than 400 watt.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:55 AM
perzyk perzyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perzyk View Post
100 or 150 watt HPS or MH is way to small. It will work for small plants but once your into heavy veging with a thick canopy your simply not going to get the penetration that the plant needs. I wouldn't go any smaller than 400 watt.
One more thing. DWC is not as simple as mixing up some nutes and dumping them into a bucket. PPM and Ph have to be monitored very closely once you get into heavy veging and flowering/fruiting. Once the plant starts feeding heavy both PPM and Ph will change very quickly over the course of a day or two.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:33 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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im not worried about needing a lot of penetration, im mounting the light from the side
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:08 AM
perzyk perzyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animus_divinus View Post
im not worried about needing a lot of penetration, im mounting the light from the side
Yes but remember the plant is going to grow towards the light. Unless you are surrounding it with multiple lights (in which case you might as well buy a nice 400-600 watter) or you are rotating the plant every day, which would be a problem. Remember. Your only going to get out what you put in to your set-up. Lighting is the one thing you can't skimp on. Not just in lumens but spectrum as well. Do yourself a favor and get a nice light, say 400 watts and a Digilux MH and HPS bulb.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:25 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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its going to be in a cage, nowhere to go but up.. and ill be sure to make sure it grows in that direction by guiding the vines in the direction they need to go... and all sides besides that of the light itself will be covered in white posterboard to reflex light to all sides
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:38 AM
perzyk perzyk is offline
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Okay. Best of luck with your grow. Be sure and give updates and pic's. I am in the middle of setting up a new grow room. Actually two of them. AC/Heat, Humidity control, Co2 system, carbon air scrubber, and plenty of light!
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:44 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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in a few years i plan to buy a piece of land of atleast 10 acres and build my own house.. i want a clear view of the south and want my kitchen along the south facing wall so that i can build a greenhouse onto the side of my house accessible from my kitchen as if it was a pantry... thats my idea so ill only need grow lights on for a few hours a day and i can keep it relatively automated..

but for now i cant do that yet and cant grow outdoors either..
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:06 PM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perzyk View Post
One more thing. DWC is not as simple as mixing up some nutes and dumping them into a bucket. PPM and Ph have to be monitored very closely once you get into heavy veging and flowering/fruiting. Once the plant starts feeding heavy both PPM and Ph will change very quickly over the course of a day or two.
Even though I don't use a EC/TDS/PPM meter at all, controlling fluctuation in nutrient strength, as well as pH swings are some of the reasons that I mentioned that a drip system would be more forgiving. Specifically because those things would be easier to control, especially as the plant gets bigger. I'm really unclear how large the plants that animus_divinus is planning, but I'm assuming he's going to try prune the tomato plants to 2 feet wide and 2 feet tall. Even that size plant could probably drink at least 1 gallon of water a day (especially with fruit on it).

So using a 5 gallon bucket as a water culture system reservoir, that realistically probably wont have more nutrient solution in it than 4 gallons when full. If the plant drinks 1 gallon of water each day, that would increase the nutrient strength by at least 25% as the plant drinks up the water. And even if the water is replaced daily, that will result in nutrient strength fluctuations of at least 25% daily. Then along with pH fluctuations from the fluctuating nutrient concentration, unless the replacement water is pH adjusted prior to adding it, that will affect the pH as well. Using one larger central reservoir will have less fluctuation, as well as be much easier to control in my opinion. Though some people prefer using water culture for growing everything, so I guess it's just what works for you.
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Old 06-29-2011, 12:06 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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well at this point i just dont have much opinion on DWC vs drip, i havent used either one... i was told DWC is more forgiving in a power outtage and i dont need medium... but realistically some pea gravel or perlite for a single plant is going to be rather negligable in cost... fountain pump and piping vs an air pump and bubbler.. its all going to come out to about the same which is what i was looking for more advice

what would be best for a tomato plant about 2x2x4 feet in size?.. im making the 150w light as efficient as possible by training to to grow in a cage and keeping it prune being surrounded entirely by pure white, plus other lights in the room im putting it into are constantly on... did all the calculations and such with the lighting, but the feed system is what im not so sure about

5 gallon buckets are really easy to get, and i was going to use it as both a platform and resovoir to keep it simple and uses the fewest materials...

if having a plant in a solid non-net pot filled with a grow medium and a drip system will mean less frequent solution changes and more stable Ph levels, then ill certainly go that route... but i havent done this yet, ive only read about it all in theory so far and was looking for the best advice as to what would be better for this one container system?
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:47 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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Well yes, given the question witch will die first a plant in a water culture system, or a drip system in case of a power outage, as I mentioned there are a lot of variables that will affect that outcome. But in general most likely the plant in the drip system would be worse off and/or die first. However power outages are not really a concern to me, but I know they may be more of a problem to people in other areas. We on occasion do get power outages, mostly between July and October (monsoon season). But they rarely last very long, we may have one or two that last more than an hour the whole season. The biggest issue for me with regards to power outages, is the timer. I just need to make sure my digital timer has a good back up battery in it (to hold the memory). My analog timers just start right back up where they left off like a analog clock does. At worst I just need to reset the time on the analog timers.

However if the digital timer dosen't have a good backup battery, all the timer settings will be lost. In that case even if the power is only out for a few seconds, the pump wont run again until I reset all the settings. But I wouldn't really have a problem if it didn't anyway, because I mostly use the digital timer on my drip systems. And when your using a lot of growing medium (like a filled five gallon bucket), the growing medium will hold a good amount of moisture for quite a while. Like I mentioned I did with my broccoli plants and often forgot to plug the pump back in, then didn't even know it for over 24 hours. Yet still never saw any signs of wilting from them. Realistically I could have just ran the pump once or twice a day (instead of the 7 times I had it set for).

Quote:
what would be best for a tomato plant about 2x2x4 feet in size?
I'm not quite sure what you mean with this question? I'm guessing you plan to grow the plant up to 4 feet, but I'm not sure if the question is about lighting, type of system, watering cycles etc.. Or all of the above.

If your planing to use the 5 gallon bucket as both the growing container, as well as the reservoir (in the same bucket), that sounds like a typical water culture setup (weather you drip nutrients or not). I know your limited in space, but a typical drip system would have the growing chamber (bucket), and reservoir separate. I would also use at least a 10 gallon reservoir for the 1 plant. It's the larger reservoir size that will give you less fluctuations in nutrient strength, as well as pH swings (not the water delivery system, bucket, or growing medium). I can get 18 gallon storage totes at wal mart for about $4, and I use them for small reservoirs (I just light proof them first).

P.S.
I should say that you can grow tomato plants in any of the 6 types of hydroponic systems (drip, water culture, NFT, ebb & flow, aeroponic, wick). But just like anything else each type has it's own set of advantages and disadvantages, both in the type of system, as well as how it's designed and/or built. I don't want to make it sound confusing, I just want to help explain the pro's and cons, and hope to help you decide what works best for your situation. As well as be aware of likely issues before you experience them from my experiences (if I can).
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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 06-29-2011 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:09 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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i guess in an absolute emergency for a day or so i could water it manually with a watering can while the power was down... what would be the best grow medium to hold onto moisture without it absorbing or bleeding off enough acids to change Ph levels?
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:12 AM
GpsFrontier GpsFrontier is offline
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My favorite growing medium is coco chips, and that's what I used in the 5 gallon bucket broccoli drip system. Coco coir and coco chips are basically the same thing, their both made from coconut husks. Both coco chips, and coir hold moisture very well. The difference is the partial size, coco chips are small chunks about the size of small wood chips you would use in your BBQ. Coco coir has a consistency more like potting soil or peat moss. Both are pH neutral, so they wont change your pH. Just make sure you rinse it real well, just to wash out most of the color. It can color/tint the nutrient solution. The color wont hurt the plants or anything, it just looks better to me in the long run.

The brick in the picture is a 2 cubic foot block. I usually fill the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket about 1/3 of the way with cleaned and sanitized rock to add weight, as well as aid in good drainage. Doing that, that one 2 cubic foot block is enough for 4, five gallon buckets. If you don't have a local hydroponic shop, you may be able to find it at a nursery. I recently noticed our local ACE hardware store carries it. It's also used as a landscaping ground cover.
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:52 AM
animus_divinus animus_divinus is offline
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well.. i think ill look into getting the coco products around here.. im in a rather small town so.. no guarantees on that.. might just order it online

but yeah.. a drip system should do fine, ill get a cheap watering can for backup...

ill take a look at the different drip systems though.. some seem to use an aquarium air pump to move water, others are just a simple fountain pump, but they all seem to have a ring of black hose attached to a PVC T that dips into the bucket

lucky for me my local hardware store carries all this stuff in bulk so i can buy what i need for cents per foot

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