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Planning my setup, input needed
Dear members,
I arrived at the country where I want to try out hydroponics. The primary goal is supplying our restaurant with some fresh and safe vegetables. Most store bought veggies are full of pesticides. Living in South East Asia the temp can be pretty high, summer 30C - 39C. This is why I am thinking about using the deep pond floating raft technique where possible and an ebb and flow system of Dutch buckets (if I can find them here) for plants that can not be planted in deep pond floating raft systems. Mainly peppers and tomato. The big ammount of water in a deep pond system would heat up less if made big enough and it provides some protection in case of a power outage. I will install a UPS however. Over time maybe a generator. The Dutch bucket system is chosen for almost the same reason, a small reservoir inside the buckets gives a small buffer in case the power goes down. By putting the tanks in the ground I hope the sollution will stay within acceptable heat limits. All would be placed under a rainproof construction together with shade clothes and insectnetting on the sides. Questions: - I have seen various installations of the deep pond technique. 1 A simple small tank with airstones (like in the forum here) 2 A longer tank with on one end a horizontal pipe that drips sollution in the thank and on the other side a hole where it flows back into the tank. This creates a small waterflow. 3 A large swimmingpool size bath full of rafts. - What system is better? Or is it a matter of trial and error? - How do they aerate the water in the large pool size ponds? Youtube has a video of a Canadian? company that works like that. Very impressive but the exact setup was not clear to me. - Any thoughts or recommondations on my setup? Thanks for all input. Of course pictures will follow as soon as everything is up and running |
#2
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#3
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Hi GPS,
Thanks for your reply. Humidty can be a problem yes, I will see what methods are available to balance it out a bit. Do you have info on creating something like the Dutch bucket system? Is it in one of your setup post here in the forum? About 1, 2 and 3: I described the different kinds of deep water cultures I did come across. Just wondered if any of them was best I will look into large air pumps and ozone treatment as those seem the most likely things used in really big operations. Will start out small first, just using the simple bubbler system. The system I seen listed under 2 did not seem to have great results during this high temps. Not sure if it was lack of oxygen or just plain heat. I'm off to google Celcius to Fahrenheit and Liter to Gallon. Then we all talk the same language haha. |
#4
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#5
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I will leave this thread as it is for now. The coming week I will make a more detailled plan of what we want to grow and how much. I need to check the restaurant usage/vegetable prices and also will have a look at the local markets in case we want to grow bigger. When I have the numbers and a better idea of the size, I will update my post here. Thanks for the advice so far
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#6
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As promised an update on my previous post. A bit later as planned because I got ill from the food or weather for a short time
Budget: Max. $5000, we prefer that items used in our test setup can also be extended to a final production location. Location: Our first try at hydroponics will be located around our house. If it works out well we will look for a bigger and more suitable location. Anyway here are the dimensions that can be used for testing: A - Length 12.5 meter, Width 5 meter B - Length 9 meter, width 2.5 meter (2 rows) C - Length 15 meter, Width 2.5 meter (2 rows) D - Indoor room 2.5 x 2.5 meter for testing temp. controlled growing of lettuce and cauliflower Plants: The past week I have gone through the vegetable order list of our restaurant which lists all locally available vegetables and their use in the restaurant. After filtering it out for items suitable for hydronics I compiled the following list (listing is in order of profitability) high to low. Price can change a bit depending on the season. I have yet to find out all specific plant requirements regarding PH, nutrient mix, planting distances, etc. Vegetables for Dutch Bucket / Drip / Ebb & flow: - Herbs: Mint, Lemon Grass, Thai Basil: Horapa + Kapao, Coriander - Others: Bird Eye Chili/Prik Kii Nuu, Bell Pepper, Tomato, Short Green Bean, Long Green Bean, Short Eggplant, Asian Cucumber, Long Egg Plant, Bitter Gourd Deep Pond Floating Raft: - Scallion, Green Lettuce, Chinese Cabbage, Kale, White Cabbage, Cantonese, Bok Choy, Morning Glory NFT or Deep Pond indoor temp. controlled - Lettuce: butterhead, red/green oak, romaine. Salanova type (Dutch seed) - Cauliflower For most deep pond vegetables our restaurant uses about 2 KG a day. Herbs around 0.5 to 1 KG a day. System: The systems would be setup within a protected environment, aphid nets for the sides and plastic as rain cover + shade clothes for plants that require it. For my setup I would like to use 2 main systems, depending on the type of vegetable we grow: - DIY Dutch Bucket System for plants that either grow tall or are bushy and as such not suitable for deep pond. Small setup, mainly used to produce the listed herbs. Other plants only for testing purpose. - DIY Deep Pond or NFT system as our main production units. I am not sure which system to choose as both have advantages and disadvantages. Deep Pond has a large water buffer, this is important as in rare occasions the power still will be cut sometimes. However it need a way to add enough oxygen in it. Bubblers might get clogged up from salts of the nutrient solution. NFT in a non-temp controlled environment might result in too high rootzone temp. Furthermore if pumps fail due to a power outage, the crop will be lost pretty quick. Nutrient mix: I do have some imported nutrient solution but it might become too expensive if we grow commercially. I am looking into nutrient recipes and the ingredients of those. Most are available here but ph up / down might be a problem. Questions: - What design would you propose given all this input, GPS Frontier? - How would you exactly design the Dutch bucket system when build by yourself? - What would be the most (cost) effective way to get enough oxygen in the deep pond system? - PH Up/Down: Some people did suggest using lemon juice for ph down and baking soda for ph up. Should this be used or is it better to import PH up/down if it is really nowhere to be found in here? - Could I use 1 nutrient recipe or do I need to create multiple? Since most vegetables I are about to grow are greens. Not much flower/blossom. Except maybe Cauliflower. - Is it possible to control humidity when the sides of the structure are aphid nets? What is the best way to control it? |
#7
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Lot's of good information, I will need a little time but a few things off the top of my head.
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Your concerns about power outages, nutrient temp and delivery are well founded. Ultimately it will come down to design, funds and resources. Quote:
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#8
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Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated
I have not much experience growing any of the crops but my brother in law has grown a variety of the common Asian vegetables in a hydro setup before. However it did not have any protection of the elements and/or bugs. Location They are 4 seperate areas with different dimensions yes. I am restricted to this for testing purposes. All is tiled and pretty close to horizontal. If I can grow reliable in there it will be expanded to land that we have to lease. I have to check for price/location/etc. But any design you recommend should be scalable. The most likely starting dimension will be a 100 m2 area but some part will be lost to (cool)storage/parking. The protected area has to be built but will be kept simple in the testing environment. I have to check on material and costs, they are outside of the $5000 budget. Materials Some materials I will have to import from Thailand as they are readily available there. For example the aphid nets and black plastic to use for deep pond systems. Other things like foam cubes to start seeds in, styrofoam boards, plastic buckets/rainwater storage tanks, wood, concrete, etc are available in here. Prices: I have to check. Just include what you would use at home and I check if it is available, at what cost and if I might can substitute it with something cheaper. Production When I grow for commercial use I plan to do round year production of the same crop. I have to research the market to see if it is profitable though but it takes time to gather this data. If however I choose to switching with seasons I would keep in mind to stack plants together that require similar cooling or lighting. Nutrient/PH Control I will check what both cost in dry form. Both can be imported from Thailand. However at a later stage it is more cost effective to make my own nutrient mix I think. Since there is no supplier here yet it also could give the opportunity to sell it. It has a steep learing curve though I have seen a member on this board who is doing it in Thailand. Temp/Humidity I will try to research more into the types of structures that are in use over here and how this affects humidity and temperature. On the following website (pls add www in front, the url did mess up my post) I found they are using Evaporative Cooling. Although some websites did suggest it would not work in the climate I live in. Any idea if it is a good investment? ackhydrofarm.com/eng_home.php I will take a tour at this farm later on maybe. |
#9
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I have made a list of the materials that I need to do the job, gotten prices for these materials. And added them up to get my figures. But my figures wont be the same as yours. As suggested before I would simply suggest building smaller systems and becoming familiar with the crops before going bigger. Quote:
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#10
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OK, I have had a little time. I think you are thinking of using two basic types of hydroponic systems. A floating system (water culture), an a dutch bucket (combination drip system, and water culture commonly referred to as a "DWC" system). Well I still recommend starting with just a few plants if you are not familiar with growing them (not to mention growing hydroponics), you will want to have success before you expand into a larger operation. But here are a few ideas on how to build the systems.
For the dutch buckets, I would use a bucket inside a bucket. Like a 5 gallon bucket for the base, and either a 5 gallon for the top, or a 3 gallon. The top bucket would have holes drilled into the bottom for the nutrient solution to drain down into the bottom bucket. The bottom bucket will have a through hole (or bulkhead fitting) that allows the overflow to drain down into the return line. This through hole would have a tube fitted into it on the inside of the bottom bucket, this is the height of the water level (or reserve) you want in each bucket. I attached a few pictures one that I did, I just was not using it as a dutch bucket, so I wasn't using a top bucket but it should give you an idea what I mean. Also if the top bucket wont fit snugly, you can get the lids for the 5 gallon bucket, then cut a hole in the lid to fit the smaller buckets. The picture of the complete bucket system is a drip system, but with the addition of a top bucket (that fits inside the bottom one) it can easily be turned into a dutch bucket system. Although I would place them in rows, with each buckets return line flowing into one large PVC pipe, and the PVC pipe flowing back into the reservoir. That would be much easier than trying to flow each individual bucket back with flexible tubing. For the pond technique, there are many ways to construct it, mostly depending on size. Large setups using concrete would probably be the most cost effective as long as it's sealed (like the lining for swimming pools, water sealant etc.), because minerals can leach out of the concrete and into the nutrient solution. But for a small scale setup like I would suggest starting with. you could use something like a small wading pool (like for little kids), these are only about 1-2 feet deep and around 8 feet wide. This can be placed into the ground to protect from high nutrient temps, but they wont be able to be placed deep enough for good Geothermal effects. Wrapping insulation around it may work as well, but it probably wont be enough for summer heat, so an alternate cooling system would probably be necessary. I have plans for such a design but cant post it here because it is in pdf. format and too large to post. I would need to e-mail it to you. I am also attaching some pictures of another design. It's basically a upside down V shaped design, with a trough at the bottom that holds the nutrient solution, and removable side panels for the plants. The tubing inside is attached to the pump, and the tubing would have misters/emitters that spray the roots with nutrient solution. Though this wont be a good design in case of power outages, but it might give you some ideas. The images are not complete, I have some upgrades in mind that are not in the images. But any way you look at it, I would suggest building some small systems for a few plants (whatever plants you decide on), then when you have had success and feel comfortable growing them, that's when I would suggest expanding into large systems. Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-11-2010 at 03:09 AM. |
#11
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Thanks for the pics and input! I will look around coming weekend what kind of things I can find that are suitable for a DWC setup. Maybe at first just some (clean) styrofoam containers they use in here to transport vegetables or fish and make a small bubble system out of it. It gives me enough time to look around for something bigger while in the mean testing out various vegetables and growing conditions. However I will need to check the nutrient temp buildup.
Do I need any special thermometer for it? I am not sure what the impact of the nutrient solution is on a "normal" thermometer. About the bucket system: if I understand correct, in the lower bucket I place a piece of tube that will determain how much water will stay in the bottom acting as reservoir. However the top bucket will be above that level, so I assume I fill up the bottom bucket with hydroton pebbles so it reaches the top bucket? If not: please explain how the plant could wick up the solution. How to determine the reservoir size? It seems to depend on the Number of plants x Bucket size x Average uptake per day x Ammount that keeps the pump from running dry |
#12
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The size of the buckets, the placement of the bottom overflow tube are both key to the design. And are reliant on what materials you have to work with. Once the root system becomes large enough it will grow down into the bottom bucket where the reserve nutrient solution is. but if the top bucket is smaller than the top one, and there is enough space between both buckets, you can raise the overflow tube high enough so the reserve water level is soaking the bottom inch or two of the growing medium. This will wick up throughout the growing medium. It's all really about what you have to work with, and how you ultimately can design it. I can maybe do a quick image of what I mean tomorrow to give you a better idea. It is basically a DWC setup, but using much more growing medium to hold moisture. I don't see much difference between a dutch bucket system and a DWC system other than that. I believe a typical dutch bucket system is feed by a drip system, but like I said it can be run like a flood and drain also, just more complicated (fittings, running lines etc.). Quote:
This gave me a buffer so I wasn't checking water level, and pH etc. twice a day. But as the water level fluctuates, so does the concentration of the nutrients in it (PPM/TDS), in the long run the bigger the reservoir the better. But also you don't want to waist nutrients either. This is part of the learning curve, and why I suggest starting small first so you can experience these things first hand. |
#13
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I had time to make a few images of what I had in mind for the dutch bucket system. They are not done to scale, but I think they give you a better idea what I am/was thinking. Also the designs are drawn around using 5 gallon buckets for the large bucket, and 3 or 4 gallon buckets for the small bucket (that holds the plants). But the basic idea is what's important because I am not sure what you have available. You can use almost anything you can get your hands on. I can get many different size storage containers at the local Walmart fairly cheaply. You may even find local restaurants that are throwing away containers that would work for you.
Also to make it easy to draw, I made the overflow tube inside the large bucket straight, but you can use a flexible line if space is an issue. The key is the top of the overflow is above the bottom of the bucket that holds the plants. This way the growing medium will be able to wick up the water from the reserve in the bottom bucket, when/if power goes out. Problem is (as with the dutch bucket design) if the water level in the bottom bucket is too high, it can water log the root system (power or not). Getting the best fit for this level is the key to it working well. So you will need to do some trial and error with this height, as well as the type of growing medium you are using, and even time of year. |
#14
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Thanks for the great drawings! (what program did you use?)
This confirms my mental image of the system you described. I think it can be developed cost effective. Yeah I can imagine it needs some trial and error testing to see what will be the best water level to contain (based on the type of plant and weather conditions). That is why I intend to keep a logbook so I can always review things at a later time. For the drip line: I have to see if I can find drip emmiters in here. Another option would be to use T connectors at the main line so each pot can have a punctured piece of tube that drips the water in it. How about the pump? It seems I first have to design my system; then work out what ammount of water will be in it; and based on that (+ the distance to the pump) how much PSI it need. I did follow this link: How to select a hydroponic pump Can the strength be adjusted on the pump or do I need to make a valve between my dripline and the pump to control it that way? Not sure if that could have a bad effect on the pump. |
#15
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It is a 3D image program that you can rotate the images, then you need to export them from the program as a jpg, in order to use them like I have posted them. Once they are exported they are 2D images and not rotatable. But I save have all the originals (in stages along the way) in original form, so I don't need to start from scratch with every image. Although, I did start from scratch when creating the ones I posted in this thread, because I hadn't created any thing with that design yet. But it's not time wasted because I have no doubt that they will come in handy later. Quote:
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Last edited by GpsFrontier; 05-12-2010 at 06:57 AM. |
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