Planning my setup, input needed

[sh4dowman]

Dear members,

I arrived at the country where I want to try out hydroponics. The primary goal is supplying our restaurant with some fresh and safe vegetables. Most store bought veggies are full of pesticides.

Living in South East Asia the temp can be pretty high, summer 30C - 39C. This is why I am thinking about using the deep pond floating raft technique where possible and an ebb and flow system of Dutch buckets (if I can find them here) for plants that can not be planted in deep pond floating raft systems. Mainly peppers and tomato.

The big ammount of water in a deep pond system would heat up less if made big enough and it provides some protection in case of a power outage. I will install a UPS however. Over time maybe a generator.
The Dutch bucket system is chosen for almost the same reason, a small reservoir inside the buckets gives a small buffer in case the power goes down. By putting the tanks in the ground I hope the sollution will stay within acceptable heat limits.

All would be placed under a rainproof construction together with shade clothes and insectnetting on the sides.

Questions:
- I have seen various installations of the deep pond technique.
1 A simple small tank with airstones (like in the forum here)
2 A longer tank with on one end a horizontal pipe that drips sollution in the thank and on the other side a hole where it flows back into the tank. This creates a small waterflow.
3 A large swimmingpool size bath full of rafts.

- What system is better? Or is it a matter of trial and error?

- How do they aerate the water in the large pool size ponds? Youtube has a video of a Canadian? company that works like that. Very impressive but the exact setup was not clear to me.

- Any thoughts or recommondations on my setup?

Thanks for all input. Of course pictures will follow as soon as everything is up and running

[GpsFrontier]

Living in South East Asia the temp can be pretty high, summer 30C - 39C. This is why I am thinking about using the deep pond floating raft technique where possible and an ebb and flow system of Dutch buckets (if I can find them here) for plants that can not be planted in deep pond floating raft systems. Mainly peppers and tomato.

Not sure what that temp is in Fahrenheit, but I am guessing it is about 100+ degrees Fahrenheit. In Asia I would probably be more concerned with the humidity, more than with what the heat like I deal with here. I am not sure Where/why you plan to buy dutch buckets. They work just fine but I can build them much cheaper in my area using 2-3-5 gallon buckets (less than $3 each for a 5 gallon bucket). They just need to fit inside each other the same way, then modified appropriately.

1 A simple small tank with airstones (like in the forum here)

Not sure the question here. Yes air stones provide air/oxygen to the roots. Especially in a water culture system, but is the question does this work? Or how much air is needed? It works, but how much is needed depends greatly on the size of the system. As well as other factors like temperature and if there is any addition of dissolved Oxygen like H2O2 (or even 03 from ozone treatment) into the nutreint solution.

2 A longer tank with on one end a horizontal pipe that drips solution in the thank and on the other side a hole where it flows back into the tank. This creates a small water flow.

This creates water flow yes, but does not introduce much needed oxygen/air into the solution by itself. I'm not sure if you are referring to a typical NFT system, or a overflow system for a water culture system. I assume it's the latter.

3 A large swimmingpool size bath full of rafts.

Not really sure how deep the swimming pools are for you, but it shouldn't need to be more than 1 to 2 feet deep, the root systems wont need more than that.

What system is better? Or is it a matter of trial and error?

Nether is best as far as I can tell. They both have there advantages and it simply depends on what you plan to grow in it that makes it a good choice or not. Tall plants that need support wont be the best choice in a water culture (floating raft). The design dimensions make a big difference also, as to how much weight it can support without failing. But it comes down to a few factors on if this is this is the best choice for the job, Amount of nutrient solution required for the operation, and weather the structure can support the intended plants. If it cant support the plants, you can always build a support structure. But weather it is cost effective compared to using a different system is the issue that I think you are concerned with.

How do they aerate the water in the large pool size ponds?

I don't know how much water you are talking about (gallons), but With a number of ways. Oxygen in the water, and water circulation are the keys for suspending roots in a nutrient solution. Otherwise they will suffocate. Large amount of air stones in a large setup may not be practical. In that case water flow is even more important. Large operations may even use Ozone treatment, this adds even more dissolved oxygen to the water, and inhibits root disease. Cost can be an issue though. Large air pumps with good water circulation may be a better option for most smaller operations.

[sh4dowman]

Hi GPS,

Thanks for your reply. Humidty can be a problem yes, I will see what methods are available to balance it out a bit.
Do you have info on creating something like the Dutch bucket system? Is it in one of your setup post here in the forum?

About 1, 2 and 3: I described the different kinds of deep water cultures I did come across. Just wondered if any of them was best I will look into large air pumps and ozone treatment as those seem the most likely things used in really big operations. Will start out small first, just using the simple bubbler system. The system I seen listed under 2 did not seem to have great results during this high temps. Not sure if it was lack of oxygen or just plain heat.

I'm off to google Celcius to Fahrenheit and Liter to Gallon. Then we all talk the same language haha.

[GpsFrontier]

Do you have info on creating something like the Dutch bucket system?

Yes, once you know what and why a system works you can design almost anything.

Is it in one of your setup post here in the forum?

No, it's a simple design though, 1 or 100 buckets it;s the same thing. And given the information I can easily design it and show you how to, and what you need. A dutch bucket system is nothing more than a bucket in a bucket, and the bottom bucket holds moisture and a return line. But that is not what makes it work. Your concern that it will hold reserve moisture in case of power frailer is correct, How much depends on your climate and how long (reserve moisture or not).

About 1, 2 and 3: I described the different kinds of deep water cultures I did come across. Just wondered if any of them was best I will look into large air pumps and ozone treatment as those seem the most likely things used in really big operations. Will start out small first, just using the simple bubbler system. The system I seen listed under 2 did not seem to have great results during this high temps. Not sure if it was lack of oxygen or just plain heat.

Well it is hard to give particulars when you don't know the exact environment. Before I can give any real advice (other than more air is better) I need to know how the system is planed to be designed, how many plants the system is planed to hold, the environment that it's planed for. Also what the financial investment. you cant build the same system for $50 that you can for $5,000. But knowing where to put the money is what is the important thing

[sh4dowman]

I will leave this thread as it is for now. The coming week I will make a more detailled plan of what we want to grow and how much. I need to check the restaurant usage/vegetable prices and also will have a look at the local markets in case we want to grow bigger. When I have the numbers and a better idea of the size, I will update my post here. Thanks for the advice so far

[sh4dowman]

As promised an update on my previous post. A bit later as planned because I got ill from the food or weather for a short time

Budget:
Max. $5000, we prefer that items used in our test setup can also be extended to a final production location.

Location:
Our first try at hydroponics will be located around our house. If it works out well we will look for a bigger and more suitable location.

Anyway here are the dimensions that can be used for testing:
A - Length 12.5 meter, Width 5 meter
B - Length 9 meter, width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
C - Length 15 meter, Width 2.5 meter (2 rows)
D - Indoor room 2.5 x 2.5 meter for testing temp. controlled growing of lettuce and cauliflower

Plants:
The past week I have gone through the vegetable order list of our restaurant which lists all locally available vegetables and their use in the restaurant. After filtering it out for items suitable for hydronics I compiled the following list (listing is in order of profitability) high to low. Price can change a bit depending on the season. I have yet to find out all specific plant requirements regarding PH, nutrient mix, planting distances, etc.

Vegetables for Dutch Bucket / Drip / Ebb & flow:
- Herbs: Mint, Lemon Grass, Thai Basil: Horapa + Kapao, Coriander
- Others: Bird Eye Chili/Prik Kii Nuu, Bell Pepper, Tomato, Short Green Bean, Long Green Bean, Short Eggplant, Asian Cucumber, Long Egg Plant, Bitter Gourd

Deep Pond Floating Raft:
- Scallion, Green Lettuce, Chinese Cabbage, Kale, White Cabbage, Cantonese, Bok Choy, Morning Glory

NFT or Deep Pond indoor temp. controlled
- Lettuce: butterhead, red/green oak, romaine. Salanova type (Dutch seed)
- Cauliflower

For most deep pond vegetables our restaurant uses about 2 KG a day.
Herbs around 0.5 to 1 KG a day.

System:
The systems would be setup within a protected environment, aphid nets for the sides and plastic as rain cover + shade clothes for plants that require it.

For my setup I would like to use 2 main systems, depending on the type of vegetable we grow:
- DIY Dutch Bucket System for plants that either grow tall or are bushy and as such not suitable for deep pond. Small setup, mainly used to produce the listed herbs. Other plants only for testing purpose.

- DIY Deep Pond or NFT system as our main production units.
I am not sure which system to choose as both have advantages and disadvantages.
Deep Pond has a large water buffer, this is important as in rare occasions the power still will be cut sometimes. However it need a way to add enough oxygen in it. Bubblers might get clogged up from salts of the nutrient solution.

NFT in a non-temp controlled environment might result in too high rootzone temp. Furthermore if pumps fail due to a power outage, the crop will be lost pretty quick.

Nutrient mix:
I do have some imported nutrient solution but it might become too expensive if we grow commercially. I am looking into nutrient recipes and the ingredients of those. Most are available here but ph up / down might be a problem.

Questions:

- What design would you propose given all this input, GPS Frontier?

- How would you exactly design the Dutch bucket system when build by yourself?

- What would be the most (cost) effective way to get enough oxygen in the deep pond system?

- PH Up/Down: Some people did suggest using lemon juice for ph down and baking soda for ph up. Should this be used or is it better to import PH up/down if it is really nowhere to be found in here?

- Could I use 1 nutrient recipe or do I need to create multiple? Since most vegetables I are about to grow are greens. Not much flower/blossom. Except maybe Cauliflower.

- Is it possible to control humidity when the sides of the structure are aphid nets? What is the best way to control it?