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#1
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Progress and Frustrations
Figured I'd make a combination update/vent post.
First the update part. As you can see from the side-by-side images attached, the pepper plants are growing nicely. 2 weeks to the day have elapsed between the different images. Plants all look healthy, really green and almost every single one of them has lots of little blooms starting on them. Even the little Thai Sun plant that I think I damaged when I moved it into this system is on the comeback and has a couple of little buds on him as well. Wife and I even did some work on rearranging the grow room and building new light stands, etc. Really freed up a lot of space in the room and made it much easier to access the plants in the tubs. The frustrating vent part....can't get any darn peppers to start. Even 2 weeks ago a few of the plants had blooms on them. I left them alone in hopes that they would "take care of themselves" so to speak. We do have a fan in the room that moves the plants pretty well and had hoped that would be enough to assist the plants in self pollinating. Something is amiss however as all of the flowers that open just end up wilting and falling off with no peppers to be found . When we got back from our Christmas trip (happy to report the system ran fine unattended for over an entire week by the way ) I began trying to help the plants pollinate. For the past week I've been doing all sorts of different methods to assist in pollination from tapping the flowers, to shaking the plant, to using a small paint brush to rub around the inside of the flower. Still not seeing any peppers and it's getting frustrating. The nute temp is staying fairly low (70 to 72 range). pH range is good staying around 5.8 to 6.5 (I really need to invest in a digital meter...stupid drops in the test tube bit is difficult to read...hehe). I still have the full spectrum MH bulb above the system and have added a couple of 100W cfl bulbs around 3000K to get a tiny bit more of the reddish range light. Added some of the awesome blossoms into the nutrient mix...but alas it doesn't seem to be working. Trying to be patient and stick with it, but it's getting to be discouraging. Though I guess from going from total noob to where I am now on my first try isn't too terrible. |
#2
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This seems like an odd problem.
I don't remember 1. What lighting are you using? 2. nutrients and the concentrations? (were you able to contact the manufacture to find out what they recommend for continuously fruiting plants?) 3. light and water cycle? 4. Are you sure that the nutrient temp is staying within that range all day long and not fluctuating higher? 5. Air temp? 6. How do the roots look? 7. How does the nutrient solution look, is it clear cloudy? 8. how often do you change the nutrients? Last edited by GpsFrontier; 01-05-2010 at 10:02 PM. |
#3
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Plantmax Greenhouse 400W MH (PX-MS400). Supplemental lights are 2 100W equiv (26W actual) CFL softwhite bulbs with 2700k color temp bought from local hardware store.
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Lights moved down to 12 hour on/12 hour off. Water cycle is still 15 min on/15 min off during light cycle. Once per hour during dark cycle. Quote:
As mentioned above, dedicated AC unit in the room set to 70 degrees so ambient temp in the room stays around there during the day. Roots look good. Not brown or anything like that. It's clear....a very slight brownish tint to it from the nutrients, but it's not cloudy at all. Nutrient is changed once a week and i do a full flush of the tubs once a month. |
#4
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I am not real familiar with artificial lighting so I am going to need to look into the lighting aspect to either eliminate it, or suspect it.
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Your system is a combination aeroponic and water culture system, and as you said the lights cause the lids of the system to be warmer than room temp. Because the baskets and the main part of the root system hang above most of the solution, they might actually be adsorbing this heat and be warmer than the nutrients themselves. I am not saying that this is the problem but I would want to cool the nutrients down a bit to eliminate it as a problem. Especially because the flowers dying and falling off is typical of the root system being too warm. If you need to replace some of the water daily to top it off, you might try dropping in block of ice instead. You could also try filling a Ziploc bag with water and freezing it, then doping one or two in the reservoir every day. I used to take one Ziploc bag and dunk it under water to fill it to keep the air bubbles out, then taking that one and placing it in another Ziploc and dunking and sealing that bag. Then doing it again for a total of 3 bags, to mimimise leaking and diluting the solution. Just remember not to fill them all the way to allow for the water expanding as it freezes. I also have a design for a simple ice driven recirculating cooling system if you are interested. Quote:
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I myself like to take apart the pump and clean it, as well as scrub out the nutrient tank with every nutrient change. But if the solution is clear, the roots have a good color and you don't see much, or anything growing on the inside of the reservoir that should be fine. But you should at least clean the screen for the pump every week regardless (if you don't already) to keep it working properly. |
#5
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In looking up the lights, I am getting a lot of different things but want to make sure. I think these are what you said you are using:
400W Plantmax Metal Halide - Hydroponic Grow Light Bulbs |
#6
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Yeah, now that we are back from vacation and into "normal mode", and this is fresh on my mind again I plan to try and follow up on getting in touch with them somehow.
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Now...a note on my temperature readings. The nutrient temps are taken with my TDS meter. It can tell me both the ppm of the solution and the temp (in celsius). I have a calibration solution for the ppm part, but have never made any attempt to calibrate or check the accuracy of the temp reading of the pen. I can only guess it's reading relatively accurately....but I suppose it's entirely possible it's not. As to the room temps I have this unit hanging on the wall in the room: Acu-Rite at Lowe's: Deluxe Wireless Weather Station. It tells me time, date, inside temp and outside temp. The "outside temp" is actually what I'm using as the temp at the top of the lids. The system has a remote sensor. If you look back at the pics you should notice a little white box sitting on top of one of the lids. That is the remote sensor and what is displaying as the "outside temp". The actual temp at the top of the plants will be a little higher than what the sensor is reading simply because they are actually closer to the light than the sensor itself is. Not a dramatic difference I'm sure, but a degree or two wouldn't surprise me. I have no method currently to monitor the air temp inside the tub between the nutrient solution and the water. I'm sure it's probably warmer than the solution itself but would expect it to be cooler than what the sensor on top of the lid reads. Not a very precise system...but it's the best I have at the moment. Hope that gives you a better idea of how I'm setup and how I'm coming up with these numbers. Quote:
Yeah I think we discussed the cooling system before. Something along the lines of running a line from the pump into a coil sitting inside a cooler filled with ice right? Like I mentioned above, I wanted to try and avoid having to deal with any situation where we have to repeatedly fill a cooler with ice or keep dropping in ice packs or what have you through out the day. I mean, if that's what it boils down to and I don't have any alternative I guess I'll have to make that sacrafice until I can come up with a better solution...but would like to avoid that if at all possible. If I did have to go down that road though, the idea we had was to simply use 2L coke bottles. Filling them about 3/4 full and freezing them and placing the bottle into the solution with the lid on to avoid any melted water from entering the nutrient solution. Last edited by txice; 01-06-2010 at 12:45 PM. |
#7
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(Had to split my reply into 2 posts...hehe....was too long. Guess I talk to much :P)
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And fianlly to your last post. That is indeed the bulb I am currently using. |
#8
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Dam, my browser crashed and I needed to start all over, so this might be shorter than the original.
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I do that it is a well known fact that Alaska is well known for growing huge fruits and vegetables in the land of the midnight sun, as they call it. They still have the summer solstice there, as well as the different spectrum's of light. But what all that boils down to is, even though they have 18-20 hours of sunlight, the days still start becoming shorter later in the summer, thus technically still less light. But don't mind me just use what works best for you. world's largest vegetables this side of Chernobyl Pepper plants are a continuously fruiting plant, so they should not be affected much by the summer solstice. After all, they begin to fruit well before the summer solstice in nature. But if I had to guess most of there ripening would happen in the later part of the summer, so I would guess you would probably have better produce with more of the red spectrum of light. and dropping back the amount of light later in their life cycle. Quote:
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(Although as a side note: I really feel those plants will get to big shortly for those containers being so close together) Quote:
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P.S. I haven't had time to call the nutrient company today. But now that I know those are the lights, I can look into the lighting situation more tonight. |
#9
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Hey that's cool. You honestly don't even need to take the time to call the nurtient company if you don't want to. I enjoy coming here and using the forums as a sounding board for ideas, issues and just plain ol' vents. I always appreciate the assistance and tips you give but please don't feel the need to go out of your way.
I know my grow room isn't optimum and I could make a LOT of improvements. Could I somehow rig up that AC unit to blow air directly into the tubs instead of the room? Yeah, I bet I could. Wouldn't be trivial, but I don't doubt I couldn't rig up something. I'm usually pretty handy at stuff like that...hehe. This is my first attempt at any real "gardening"...and choosing to try out my very green "green thumb" with hydroponics might not have been the best idea...but hey, I like a challenge. These pepper plants are more of a novelty test for me to see if I can get the basics down and whether or not this whole idea of indoor gardening is worth persuing. I think I'm doing decently for the first go around and I've gotten a ton of useful help from the folks here, especially you. I hope to make tweaks here and there as time goes on and improve where I can and learn as much as possible. Decided to add a few more photos....and maybe point out a potential glimmer of hope. First pic is a peak "under the hood". Just wanted to show the roots and a quick glance at the nute solution. Roots look healthy to me, and you can see that the nute solution is pretty clear. A little bit of brown sediment sitting at the bottom of the tub. I'm thinking its "stuff" that has settled out of some of the ingredients I add into the solution. A couple of those nutrients are rather "thick and chunky" and have alot of "floaties" in them. I'm guessing it's that stuff setteling out of the soltuion eventually. The second pic is probably hard to make out (darn iPhone camera doesn't do closeups very well...hehe). While I was on the topic of "frustrations" I forgot to mention gnats. Lots of GNATS! Where they are all coming from I have no idea. That's what the black specs on the papper are. Dead gnats that have met their maker trying to get too close to the 400W MH bulb....hehe. The tops of the lids are littered with dozens of dead gnats. Never see more than a couple actually flying around the room...but they keep coming from somewhere. My only guess is they are getting access into the room from the AC units window vent kit. Ah...so I mentioned a potential gleam of hope....and if it is you should be able to see them in the last two pics. Did I jump the gun a little bit? Are those what I think they might be?? Are those little baby peppers?? Oh...edit. Just throwing out something else I happened to read but had never really given much thought to, but something that none the less made a lot of sense when I read it. I ran across a tid bit that mentioned that another potential cause of flower drop off could be because the plants are still doing some heavy veg growth. I think that's fairly evident from the original pics I posted in this thread. These guys are definately growing. What I ran across was specifically talking about pepper plants being grown indoors and it was suggested that flowers might simply be dropping off if the plants are still undergoing heavy vegetative growth. Basically because the plant was devoting more energy to the veg growth and not enough to the flower/fruit development. /shrug....seemed logical anyways. Last edited by txice; 01-06-2010 at 09:52 PM. |
#10
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I am thinking the MH light is too blue. At 7200K that is a lot of blue. You may look at switching to something with more red.
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#11
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What I use is a Phillips MasterColor Cermic Metal Halide. It runs in a 400 Watt HPS fixture.
Here is a comparison between a HPS and a CMH. Ceramic Metal Halidel |
#12
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At the time I got the light system I bought a second bulb as well. A 400W HPS bulb. Second picture attached is the spectrum printed on the HPS bulbs box. I had mentioned in another thread that I was thinking about making the switch to the HPS bulb since I was seeing alot of blooms starting on the plants. I think it was GPS that mentioned I might not want to do that simply because the plants are also still doing veg growth and may not be too happy with the HPS bulb in that regard (which makes sense of course). That is what sparked me to add the 2 2700K CFL bulbs. My thinking was that I could maybe suppliment the amount of the red spectrum the plants were getting....even if it was just a little bit. I've also thought about maybe putting in the 400W HPS and using 2 "full spectrum" daylight simulating CFL bulbs as the supplement....sorta reversing what I have now. Edit...sorry I know my pics are crap. I'll continue to blame the iPhone and not own up to any lack of photo taking skills Last edited by txice; 01-06-2010 at 10:09 PM. |
#13
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I know that some people use only the HPS lights for the entire plants life. How well that works for peppers I'm not sure. Personally I would think using both Metal Halide and High Pressure Sodium in conjunction with each other would provide the best light for both vegetative growth and fruiting growth at the same time, at least for the first half of the pepper plants life, then switching over to all HPS after that. Then again I use natural light, so I don't need to deal with what spectrum's and intensity the light is putting out, just the weather. |
#14
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yea HPS may help you get what you are looking for.
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#15
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Or some 2700k ( Warm White ) fluorescent bulbs.
edited, just read you already have. |
#16
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#17
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Yep . Probably not helping a whole lot...but it's probably better than nothing. My co-worker who started doing this at the same time I did is in pretty much the exact same boat I am at the moment. His pepper plants are growing nicely, they have lots of blooms, nice big healthy root mass, but he's not having fruit set either. I don't know the exact details of everything he's doing. He has a grow tent setup in his garage. Interesting point about his setup is that he ONLY uses CFL bulbs. He has a mix of the "soft white" and "bright white" types, but he says they work nicely for him.
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#18
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Here is the difference between a CMH and a HPS light, same fixture, but 2 different bulbs. Notice how orange the HPS is?
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#19
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Yes....I'm familiar with the differences between the two types of light.
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#20
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I attached some pictures of my pepper plants last summer. Going by the strawberry's I would say the pepper plants were transplanted into the system within a week or two of the time the pictures where taken where they are smaller. I am not exactly sure when the pictures were taken where they are larger, but it was about that time I was having trouble keeping the nutrient solution temperatures down, so I don't have any latter pictures of them. They were no where near full size at that point either, you can see how I have them spaced at 1 1/2 feet apart to give them space to grow. But with no way to keep the nutrient temp under control, I decided not to waste nutrients and electricity to keep them on life support. Quote:
Last edited by GpsFrontier; 01-08-2010 at 06:48 AM. |
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